Pilot body in VR

1st Official Post

    I haven't been flying FS2 for a few weeks, so I thought I'd check out the latest stuff. Love the new little Bucker biplane, and as I was scrolling through the different camera views, it's clear there is a really good pilot model there, but I can't seem to get him to show in VR.

    So I was wondering what the latest was on the visibility of the VR pilot? I think it makes an immense difference to immersion in titles such as DCS, and it do think it would be great to have it in FS2. Anyone have any info one way or the other?, cheers :thumbup:

    i5-12600K/MSI RTX 3080/Win11/64Gb RAM/Asus Xonar DX+ Beyer DT990 pro headphones/LG 34" UM65 @2560x1080/Quest Pro/TM Warthog+VKB MkIV Rudder pedals

    • Official Post

    I'm not too sure that I fully understand what you are asking here.

    In VR, if you select the co-pilot (or any other internal) camera view you already do see the detailed pilot.

    Are you not seeing the pilot in the PIC seat?

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    In the Bucker, if I scroll through the camera views, I see a very detailed pilot body, but if I go to the cockpit camera, the main flying view, there is no pilot, only an empty seat. The pilot is there on all the external cameras, and I can see his hand move on the throttle and everything. These screenshots are from 2D not VR, but the views are the same

    • Official Post

    In this case (in the pilot seat camera) the pilot would be you so there should be no 3D pilot in the seat.

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    • Official Post

    This isn't something default in Aerofly. I assumed he was mentioning something that he would consider a bug.

    You have to be very careful making modifications to core Aerofly files as things could get messed up rather quickly. Also, please be mindful that we periodically update those files, so any changes done to them would be lost.

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    Thanks for the replies, I wasn't thinking in terms of a bug, just enquiring as to whether it is designed this way or not, and if there is a way to show the pilot body that I might have missed. For instance, in say the Spitfire or the Huey in DCS, you can have the pilot body on or off, so if you have it on, you look down and there is a body there where yours should be, and the hands are attached to the throttle and stick; as you move your controls, the hands move in game, and even though they might not be in exactly the right place, the immersion is very strong.

    It's the same in driving sims like Project CARS, you look down and the driver character's body is in just the right place, and the virtual hands are on the wheel as they should be.

    I can see how FS2 might not be quite ready with a feature such as that, I fully get that it's a work in progress, but as the pilot body is clearly already modelled to a high standard, I guess you just need a headless version for VR so the camera eyepoint doesn't clip through the head of the model.

    If we aren't quite there with this feature, then I'd just like to put it forward as a suggestion for future development, considering that it makes a big difference to the level of immersion in sims and games that use this feature. Lone Echo in VR is perhaps the best example I can think of where you have a fully realised body in VR and it really does have a striking effect on the whole experience.

    Anyway, that Bucker is such a lovely little aircraft, so thanks again for adding it, keep up the good work.

    i5-12600K/MSI RTX 3080/Win11/64Gb RAM/Asus Xonar DX+ Beyer DT990 pro headphones/LG 34" UM65 @2560x1080/Quest Pro/TM Warthog+VKB MkIV Rudder pedals

    Just my two cents on the topic (as aircraft developer) - I've had a request for such a feature in my plane (for FSX/P3D) several times - but it is a question of personal preference. In virtual cockpit views some users would like to see their "body" (legs and arms only) as they perceive this to be more realistic. Also in VR some users feel the absence of a "virtual body" to be a little disorienting.... However, by and large, it is assumed and accepted that the pilot body will not show in virtual cockpit, for one it would make accessing the controls on the side consoles quite hard.
    Anyway it is a question of personal taste - some user feel like it would be better, but most do not IMHO.

    You all make good sense guys but really having the option to turn the body On/Off is the best choice here.

    The immersion is great with pilot's body and even greater when you realise the shadow of your head projected around the cockpit is actually following movement of your own head (like in Combat Air Patrol 2).

    Another title (Discovering space 2) went even farther and "lean" the whole upper body of your avatar as you move your headset horizontally.

    It is a gamechanger, you have to try it to believe!

    Does IPACS have any plans regarding this subject?

    Jay

    Over and Out

    Jay

    Edited once, last by Jay 737 (December 14, 2017 at 7:19 AM).

    Quote from Indiafoxtecho

    Just my two cents on the topic (as aircraft developer) - I've had a request for such a feature in my plane (for FSX/P3D) several times - but it is a question of personal preference. In virtual cockpit views some users would like to see their "body" (legs and arms only) as they perceive this to be more realistic. Also in VR some users feel the absence of a "virtual body" to be a little disorienting.... However, by and large, it is assumed and accepted that the pilot body will not show in virtual cockpit, for one it would make accessing the controls on the side consoles quite hard.
    Anyway it is a question of personal taste - some user feel like it would be better, but most do not IMHO.

    That's an interesting point of view; I can see that coding the pilot body to operate anything but the most basic functions would be tricky, but I certainly agree with Jay above, that once you get used to the visible body in VR, its absence feels oddly disorienting. Discovering Space is interesting, as the pilot hands are anchored to the throttle and joystick, and the rest of the body sort of shuffles around as you move.

    I don't think it needs anything more than the basic 'HOTAS' animations though to be effective, and remember that in the Bucker, all that work is already done and the pilot is fully modelled and animated.

    i5-12600K/MSI RTX 3080/Win11/64Gb RAM/Asus Xonar DX+ Beyer DT990 pro headphones/LG 34" UM65 @2560x1080/Quest Pro/TM Warthog+VKB MkIV Rudder pedals

    • Official Post
    Quote from John Hargreaves

    That's an interesting point of view; I can see that coding the pilot body to operate anything but the most basic functions would be tricky, but I certainly agree with Jay above, that once you get used to the visible body in VR, its absence feels oddly disorienting. Discovering Space is interesting, as the pilot hands are anchored to the throttle and joystick, and the rest of the body sort of shuffles around as you move.

    I don't think it needs anything more than the basic 'HOTAS' animations though to be effective, and remember that in the Bucker, all that work is already done and the pilot is fully modelled and animated.

    If you are flying in VR, the pilot body (and more importantly the hands of the pilot) will actually conflict with the Oculus Touch advanced gesture control feature coming soon (if you are planning on using Touch controllers). The 'VR Hands' feature update will give you FULL control of the aircraft with just the Touch controllers. I thought I would just give you a little insight here :)

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    Ola ....

    with Touch controller is clear ...but i NEVER will change my stick, rudder , Throttle (and so on)

    ( because of really nice feeling and 0,5mm reaction ) and use for flying controls the VR hands ...never :)

    So i hope you understand, that it will be nice, when i saw down to my knees in my Rift , that there are legs, body ...

    :) :) :) like in real life :P

    Do you think this is makable ? I think flying with the rift hand controller is never the future for real nice flying like most (sim)pilots do...

    So I think its not time-wasting to try to make a body inside VR, 90 % who use the Sim really ...( and not only for

    joke-gaming 5min a year) will use own hardware ... the joysticks / rudder and so on, also in future.

    mfg, Jens ... Flight-Sim.org

    Mein Home-Cockpit ... My Simulator Hardware

    MSI PRO Z690-P DDR4 --- SI INTEL Core i7-13700F 2.1GHz LGA1700 Tray --- Palit RTX4070 JetStream 12GB DDR6 --- 16GB DDR4 PC4400 --- SSD Patriot 1TB M.2 Viper VP4300 --- Pimax Crystal

    Alles fliegt irgendwie,
    fragt sich nur wielange

    i agree, i use Elite Dangerous most days so I am used to seeing a virtual body in a VR view. As has been mentioned, the 3D model is already made and viewable so surely it can't be too difficult to add this option. If the default is off then fine but at least give us the option to turn it on.

    Quote from drhotwing1

    If you are flying in VR, the pilot body (and more importantly the hands of the pilot) will actually conflict with the Oculus Touch advanced gesture control feature coming soon (if you are planning on using Touch controllers). The 'VR Hands' feature update will give you FULL control of the aircraft with just the Touch controllers. I thought I would just give you a little insight here :)

    This sounds like a really intriguing experiment, I can't think of another sim that has gone this far with using the touch controllers inside the game. I'll be fascinated to see how it compares with using physical HOTAS etc controllers and then using the imagination to bridge the gap between that and what happens in the simulated environment.

    On one hand, there is something about the physical feedback of the cool metal surface of the Warthog joystick that would be hard to substitute, but on the other, VR is perfectly capable of giving an illusion of zero-G while I am sitting in an office chair with some silly goggles on my head, and I have no problem imagining I am orbiting one of Saturn's moons until the telephone rings, so it may well surprise us all.

    I'm happy to remain open minded either way.

    i5-12600K/MSI RTX 3080/Win11/64Gb RAM/Asus Xonar DX+ Beyer DT990 pro headphones/LG 34" UM65 @2560x1080/Quest Pro/TM Warthog+VKB MkIV Rudder pedals

    Quote from John Hargreaves

    This sounds like a really intriguing experiment, I can't think of another sim that has gone this far with using the touch controllers inside the game. I'll be fascinated to see how it compares with using physical HOTAS etc controllers and then using the imagination to bridge the gap between that and what happens in the simulated environment.

    On one hand, there is something about the physical feedback of the cool metal surface of the Warthog joystick that would be hard to substitute, but on the other, VR is perfectly capable of giving an illusion of zero-G while I am sitting in an office chair with some silly goggles on my head, and I have no problem imagining I am orbiting one of Saturn's moons until the telephone rings, so it may well surprise us all.

    I'm happy to remain open minded either way.

    'VTOL VR' on steam has full controller flight and switches. Though at a very early stage. Works quite well.

    Quote from drhotwing1

    If you are flying in VR, the pilot body (and more importantly the hands of the pilot) will actually conflict with the Oculus Touch advanced gesture control feature coming soon (if you are planning on using Touch controllers). The 'VR Hands' feature update will give you FULL control of the aircraft with just the Touch controllers. I thought I would just give you a little insight here :)

    I actually suspected that the release of the Touch control functionality would come with a full pilot body i.e. the Touch/Hands would be attached to arms and shoulders rather than severed. Still I am sure this will come with time. My other hope about Touch control is that it will include Leap Motion support or at least be just a small step away from that and other hand interface options like GloveOne as both of these should combine well with physical yokes and sticks.

    I use also vtol VR ...works not good, also when you fly more than 5 min ...you had to hold your arm / hand in the air ..

    i am no bodybuilder :) :) also the fine resolution of 1 mm forward left ...dont work ..has nohting to do with the feeling of real flight, or flight with a ( really high quality-) joystick.

    With my joystick, feeling is 99% like real flying , and i dont had to hold my weight of arm / hand in the air for the whole time...

    mfg, Jens ... Flight-Sim.org

    Mein Home-Cockpit ... My Simulator Hardware

    MSI PRO Z690-P DDR4 --- SI INTEL Core i7-13700F 2.1GHz LGA1700 Tray --- Palit RTX4070 JetStream 12GB DDR6 --- 16GB DDR4 PC4400 --- SSD Patriot 1TB M.2 Viper VP4300 --- Pimax Crystal

    Alles fliegt irgendwie,
    fragt sich nur wielange

    I also wanted to add (as already mentioned above) that for serious simer, virtual controls ONLY, is nowhere close to practicality.

    We've spend way too much bug for descent controllers to enjoy proper "hands on" experience. I too feel this direction is sort of waste of time.

    Nevertheless it's not that easy to suggest ideal model as VR is still very young and even use of Vive's wands or Rift's touch controllers along with real hotas or yoke will be very disturbing as those controllers won't be permanently attached to your hands.

    Perhaps Leap motion or the GloveOne can offer some sensible solution but this is still far future for "today pilots" so why can't we get just beheaded avatar with an option to turn him invisible by the click of a button?

    Over and Out

    Jay

    Same here. I’ve got the Warthog so have everything I really need on buttons/sliders/switches/POV hats. Real pilots will generally keep a hand on the yoke/stick and I do too. Wands/Touch controllers are great for all sorts of things but as a control interface in VR, not so much. DCS gives you "hands" in VR already and I never use them. About the only useful hands that I know of in VR for any cockpit sim are using a Leap Motion to have the sim recognize your real hands when you take them off the stick/yoke and go to manipulate virtual controls. With that you aren’t having to locate and pick up wands. I’ll be curious to see what is being worked on, though.

    Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog, MFG Crosswind pedals, 2 dof Motion, Valve Index