G-seat simulator

    Hey all,

    I have not been on the board much, as I have been busy with work, and a new project. I have been working on a G-seat similar to that built by Spit40. All during this process I have been rolling it around in my mind if I wanted to try and market these as a side for my main business. The first prototype has been through 3 revisions, and I believe it is now in it's final configuration. If all goes well, I will continue tooling up for production with release around April 1st.

    I have tested the seat with FS2, as well as some other flight sims, and a number of racing sims. The effect when using in conjunction with VR, is truly awesome.

    I would like to get some feedback and thoughts on this. Would this be something some of you would be interested in? Any other feedback welcome as well.

    For now, here is a video of the seat functioning. This video was done when the parts were made of wood. I have since converted it all over to plasma cut and welded steel.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUuJhWlxNco&t=1s

    Andrew

    Quote from slipstream

    Wow. Take my money. If this is compatible with DCS they’ll fly off the shelves. Well done. Put my name down please. Any idea of rough cost?

    I have not tried DCS, but there is a plug in for it, so there should be no problem. I will give it a try this week, and make sure it works.

    Shoot me a PM if interested and we can discuss price and options.

    Andrew

    Nice engineering work Andrew! I'm guessing one of the big challenges you have is the same challenge VR headsets went through - processing the data fast enough to the fool the brain that the experience is real.

    The answer for VR was 90 FPS or an 11ms update window. Does your data processing + servo motor response times happen fast enough so the g-forces stay roughly in sync with the game?

    I recently finished a roller coaster fans project (looks like you also used NL2) that uses the audio level to control the fans and it took a few Arduino coding tweaks to smooth out the signal without adding lag to the fan response time.

    Regarding the idea of marketing your seat - as I've seen in Shark Tank, people trying to start a "side business" usually don't get an investment deal because they want to see someone 150% committed to making that product a success. You'll also be competing in the chair business - gamers like comfortable chairs and we tend to spend money starting at the top of our senses (eyes/pixels, ears) and working down to things like HOTAS/Wheels + mouse/keyboard and finally niche things like Gaming chairs, ButtKickers, etc.

    I think your target market will be the same people that buy GTX1080Ti graphics cards because your chair will be a high-end chair so you may want to IM a few of those people to see what kind of chair they currently have so you know what quality/comfort level you need to achieve to meet their standards. In the end (pun intended), you would be trying to convince them to ditch their current Gaming chair!

    Just my 2 cents :)

    Good points. I have a $1,000 Steelcase office desk chair (retirement gift from a supplier) for my triple monitor setup chair and a VolAir Racing Chair that comes with the VolAir flight sim chassis. The flight chassis now has the near Buttkicker addon.

    Regards,

    Ray

    I use the gametrix vibration cushion for DCS and it’s incredible what it adds to the VR experience. I would use this in conjunction with Gamtrix. I’m hoping the cushion will br codec for AFS2 soon.

    I currently use buttkicker for non compatible sims.

    Love that cockpit desk!!! That is too cool!

    Yes, it is very much a niche product. Not for everyone, but those that are dedicated to simulation will be interested. Right now as far as I can tell, there is no complete G-seat on the market. The last one was the G4, with the promise of the G5 coming, but it has been like 4 years they have been saying that.

    I own http://www.mrrcsound.com, which is very much a niche product for RC airplanes, cars, and boats. I have been doing it for about 5 years now full time. So niche products are nothing new to me. Right now it is just me doing everything, at one time I had one employee, who left for another job. Can't blame him, I could not provide insurance and such. Anyway, if things ramp up I will probably have to hire an employee or two. For the moment I am looking to do 2-3 seats a month, and expand from there if the market is good.

    The seat uses Sim-Tools V2.2 for the output from the games. It does a most excellent job of syncing the movements with what you see. The servos are capable of 60* per second movement. Sim-Tools supports over 80 games currently, and growing. The largest majority are flight and racing simulators. I am in negotiations with the writer of Sim-Tools to provide V2.2 with the seat. One of the real issues I encountered is the setup of everything on the software side. It is not totally strait forward, and can be confusing. He is working on an install process that brings in all the presets for the seat with the install, so it is nearly Plug N Play.

    Andrew

    Quote from Jetjockey10

    Good points. I have a $1,000 Steelcase office desk chair (retirement gift from a supplier) for my triple monitor setup chair and a VolAir Racing Chair that comes with the VolAir flight sim chassis. The flight chassis now has the near Buttkicker addon.

    Regards,

    Ray

    A vibration system is something I am working on for the seat as well. Sim-Tools now has GameVibe, which is similar to Sim-Vibe. I currently use a transducer system for my RC airplane sound systems, which may work with the GameVibe. I think one transducer on each flap, would be great. However, I have yet to get it to work. Not sure if it is a GameVibe problem or something I am doing wrong. Working on it though.

    Andrew

    Quote from Raging Beard

    Wow looks cool, I know absolutely nothing about G-seats... What are the pros and cons of one of these compared to a motion seat like Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3?

    Thanks.

    The idea of the g-seat is to simulate movement, without actual movement of the body. Both the g-seat and a full motion platform have their advantages. The g-seat can be added to a motion platform, for even more depth of feel if you wish. The Next level sim is pretty compact, most of them are not and take up a big footprint. This G-seat takes up the same footprint as a normal chair, in fact I am using it as my main computer chair when not in use.

    A quick description of the way it works. For acceleration, the surge flaps on the back move forward. Giving the impression of accelerating, being set back into the seat. Cornering/turns, the same, one or the other moves to give the impression of g forces through the turn. The heave leg flaps work the same as well. During declaration, the leg flaps move up giving the butt feel of slowing down. At the same time this pulls on the harness restraints, pulling them back against you, similar to how it would feel as you move forward into the belts on deceleration.

    I have read of a lot of head tracking problems using VR with a full motion seat. With the G-seat it is not a problem.

    Lastly, I am trying to make it cheaper. I was shooting for $1000 or under, but it is apparent at this point that will not happen unless I can negotiate some of the components to a lower cost. $1200-1400 is a good bet, trying to hit the lower cost of $1200. The servos are the main cost driver, if I can get those down substantially a lower over all price is a better bet.

    Andrew

    Quote from slipstream

    Very cool idea but too expensive imo. I’m probably going to shoot for dofreality.com and their 2dof motion platform at a similar price.

    Unfortunately, the cost of the components is most of the cost. I am working on trying to get some deals to drive the price down. I agree, I think they would sell better at a lower cost.

    I will lay it on the line for you, not just you but everyone, so that maybe we can come to a consensus as to what a reasonable selling price would be. Here is a cost breakdown:

    Seat: $155

    Seat Base: $70

    Servos: $240 for 4

    Servo arms disks: $48

    Steel: $40

    Brackets and hinges: $20

    24v DC Power Supply: $30

    Arduino: $7

    Wiring: $20

    Bearing Rod and Ends: $20

    Velcro: $5

    4 Point Harness: $20

    Misc nuts and bolts: $10

    Sim-Tools V.2.2: ~$30 not 100% sure on that yet.

    Hardware total: $715

    $715 in just hardware alone. I have invested another $500-700 so far in plasma cutting and welding tools, and will probably be doing another few hundred. I figure about 16 hours worth of work per seat. That includes all the plasma cutting, welding, programing and testing. This also does not include the time I have put into working on or the cost of the prototype.

    So basically we are looking at what is my hourly rate to build and test a seat. Using these figures, and a selling price of $1200, it figures out to about $30 an hour. That does not back cover anything for the other investments.

    In your opinion, what do you think would be a good selling price? Is there anything that I can add or do, to make it a better value?

    Andrew

    What I do like about your system Andrew is the fact that it’s all confined to the seat. That’s a huge plus for most, I would suggest, and a great selling point.

    I would ideally like to have a demo first to see exactly what it brings to the party in terms of added realism to G Force. For all I know this may be better than actual motion. Could your system also mimmick turbulence and effects such as stall? That would be awesome if so. I’m also concerned that I will have to add 20 percent on to the price for import to the U.K.

    Quote from slipstream

    What I do like about your system Andrew is the fact that it’s all confined to the seat. That’s a huge plus for most, I would suggest, and a great selling point.

    I would ideally like to have a demo first to see exactly what it brings to the party in terms of added realism to G Force. For all I know this may be better than actual motion. Could your system also mimmick turbulence and effects such as stall? That would be awesome if so. I’m also concerned that I will have to add 20 percent on to the price for import to the U.K.

    20%.... Good night, that is nuts. Normally with my other products I ship them as "gift" with a lower value on the customs form. I am not sure if that would fly for something like this.

    Turbulence, some. This will be enhanced if and when I can get GameVibe working. I was planning to add this feature at no extra cost as well, if I can get it working. Right now, a stall feels pretty good. You are simulating a number of forces at the same time. Acceleration, deceleration, pitch, roll, yaw, and gravity. The strength of each is determined by the simulator output. In the case of a stall, it is going to mix pitch and gravity behind you when you pull up. So pressure on the back. As you reach the top, the back pressure relaxes, and as you go over, you get the pressure in the leg flaps. If you stall to the side, you will have one of the back and leg flaps giving more pressure, from gravity and turn.

    Is it 100% real, no, I don't think so. Does it add a lot, yes, especially in VR. If you can take a trip over the pond, I would be more than happy to have you give it a try. :) It is very hard to know how something works without trying it.

    Andrew

    I wish you were based in the U.K. you could ‘minus 20 percent’ of total cost on the customs form and that should do it I reckon. When I mentioned Stall I meant all over vibration, and for turbulence it would be random movements in the legs pushing up and down slightly. How about simulating gear up and down, flaps extended etc. My gametrix cushiondoes all that via vibration in the right area and at the right time. This plus gametrix Cush would be awesome.

    Quote from slipstream

    I wish you were based in the U.K. you could ‘minus 20 percent’ of total cost on the customs form and that should do it I reckon. When I mentioned Stall I meant all over vibration, and for turbulence it would be random movements in the legs pushing up and down slightly. How about simulating gear up and down, flaps extended etc. My gametrix cushiondoes all that via vibration in the right area and at the right time. This plus gametrix Cush would be awesome.

    I just got off FS2, testing to see. Yes, there is some random movements for turbulence. I can't feel the landing gear or the flaps though. You can feel bumps on the runway, and definatley feel touch down. If you are not level, you can feel each wheel touch down.

    Gamevibe should do pretty much the same as the cushion does, I just have to get it running. I will work on it more tonight.

    Andrew

    Quote from slipstream

    I wish you were based in the U.K. you could ‘minus 20 percent’ of total cost on the customs form and that should do it I reckon. When I mentioned Stall I meant all over vibration, and for turbulence it would be random movements in the legs pushing up and down slightly. How about simulating gear up and down, flaps extended etc. My gametrix cushiondoes all that via vibration in the right area and at the right time. This plus gametrix Cush would be awesome.

    If you can get to the Lake District, Andrew's setup is based on this design although I think he's managed to refine it in a few areas.