R22: Changed Flight Model [Professional Mode] ??

  • Sorry for the delay, I was away for a while and couldn't ask.


    Yes we did change something in the R22. The rotor blades are now simulated as bendable! If you stop the rotor you can see how flexible they are, the blades can now twist and bend which of course also dampens some of the abrupt inputs and it also makes it a bit more stable and at the same time a bit softer and easier to fly. We did this to get more realistic simulation results in comparison to real world test data and to simulate the rotor response to stick inputs even better. The R22 flies extremely close to the data of the real world aircraft.


    Well, thank you a lot for your reasonable answer! You can see yourself, proper communication with us customers makes the whole thing a lot easier.


    If your testimony is correct, and if the current OB's flymodel comes closer to reality than the previous one, then i can exist with that.


    REALISTIC FLIGHT BEHAVIOUR GOES OVER EVERYTHING; and it is something for what IPACS and Aerofly are famous for, since its beginnings.


    Okay, the journey goes on, together with Aerofly :)


    All the very best and THANK YOU:

  • Ok, I finally opted in to the Aerofly beta and had 1,5 hours of time with the updated flight characteristics of the R22 with the bendable blades modeled now and here's my honest opinion : the flight model is a thousand times better than before, and here's why : before the beta, I found that the R22 was extremely and unrealistically hard to control, it felt like minimal cyclic and collective input made the helicopter jump and turn around wildly like a housefly on meth. Although of course I'm not a real life pilot, I have logged hundreds of hours in the Dodosim Bell 206 for FSX and P3D which is considered to be one of the most realistic helicopter simulations around and which is also used for professional training. And I I just couldn't believe that a R22 was THAT hard to control even for someone who knows a little about flight dynamics and aerodynamic effects of helicopters. Now don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that flying a heli is supposed to be hard and needs lots of practice, it took me hours to get the hang of flying the B206. But at least I saw an improvement over time. The R22 before the beta really got me frustrated because no matter how careful I was it was still a matter of luck to takeoff and land it safely. Now with the beta, I feel at home again and all the "muscle memory" I still have from the B206 finally lets me control the R22 like I thought it should be. It also showed me that the people complaining about the new behavior of the heli obviously don't have, just like me, real life experience with the aircraft but just noticed that something had changed and assumed that the developers had deliberately dumbed down the flight model to appeal to the mass market. As it turns out, the opposite is true, the developers implemented an important feature with the bendable blades that is probably MORE realistic than before, because in real life the rotor blades won't be completely stiff either. That flying the helicopter gets a little easier that way doesn't always mean that it's less realistic, it's still hard enough as it is. It also shows that a real physics engine doesn't automatically mean that you get better results than from a charts and numbers approach like Dodosim did in FSX all those years ago, if something important like bendable blades is not modeled then the flight model will be different from the original. Maybe people should think about things like that in the future before threatening to turn their back on the developers just because something changed they don't understand . Personally I'm really happy with the new R22 and I hope the developers will continue to improve their simulator in the future.

    Thanks and best regards,

    Fabian

  • Please don’t think that this is trying to be offensive Fabian, it honestly is not, you can’t describe realism if you haven’t flown the aircraft or a very similar type, it is using knowledge that is really not there, another PC sim’ doesn’t count. This is a million miles from a trolling attack, I am only trying to be humbly constructive.

    I have a very, very small amount of time, long ago in an Enstrom F 28, it is a piston single nominally 3 seater with a 3 blade rotor on a tall mast, so I have almost no experience in a different make. It didn’t have the initial FS2 R 22’s attitude rapid-twitchiness which I’ll agree does seem better but it moved a beginner more in all 3 axes more quickly and needed more skill to get into a perfectly stable hover, I never got close to it in real life!

    I’m grateful for the valuable contributions from the R 22 pilots, they help the developers and us unqualified enthusiasts, I can’t read enough from them.

  • Please don’t think that this is trying to be offensive Fabian, it honestly is not, you can’t describe realism if you haven’t flown the aircraft or a very similar type, it is using knowledge that is really not there, another PC sim’ doesn’t count. This is a million miles from a trolling attack, I am only trying to be humbly constructive.

    I have a very, very small amount of time, long ago in an Enstrom F 28, it is a piston single nominally 3 seater with a 3 blade rotor on a tall mast, so I have almost no experience in a different make. It didn’t have the initial FS2 R 22’s attitude rapid-twitchiness which I’ll agree does seem better but it moved a beginner more in all 3 axes more quickly and needed more skill to get into a perfectly stable hover, I never got close to it in real life!

    I’m grateful for the valuable contributions from the R 22 pilots, they help the developers and us unqualified enthusiasts, I can’t read enough from them.

    Of course I'm in no position to judge how closely the Aerofly R22 compares to the real thing without having actually flown it, but I got the impression that some others (not you) attacked the developers for changes they didn't even understand and claimed that this made the flight model less realistic without knowing how the real helicopter flies anymore than I do. Jan's answer seemed plausible to me and I just think that we should cut the developers some slack and have more patience if such a small team doesn't answer every question within a few hours.

  • Anyway, wether the current R22 Open Beta flight model (professional mode) behaves more realistically or not - it is MORE BORING - to me this is a matter of fact !!!


    Yes, it was hard to master/control the previous one, but it wasn't impossible and as I became more skilled there was no problem at all (remark: I'm always using seperate controls - one for cyclic, one for collective and the last one as pedals); and it was funny/rewarding, because it was almost impossible to master the previous Professinal Mode without the needs of seperate controls - like in reality.


    The corrected one doesn't need seperate controls at all, you can master it with ONLY ONE JOYSTICK - which I've proofed for myself many times. Yes, I'm pretty disapointed about the current - so called - professional flight model.


    • Before IPACS corrected it, there was a significant difference between "Easy Mode" vs "Professional Mode"
    • Now the difference is only marginal (is there still a difference ? ) ---> former Professional Mode has adapted towards Easy Mode, not contrariwise.
    • If that is the end result and what developers mean under "adding more realism" in the best sense of as real as it gets, then I'll swallow this bitter pill.


    Resume: Flying the Robinson R22 in Aerofly became less appealing for me - significantly !

  • Perhaps it should have three modes: "Easy Mode", "Professional Realistic Mode" and "Hard Unrealistic Gamer Mode" ?

    I'd also vote for a Challenge Mode where you need to take off and land on every helipad in the LA area in under 90 seconds while controlling the R22 only with a Guitar Hero Drums controller ;)

  • Perhaps it should have three modes: "Easy Mode", "Professional Realistic Mode" and "Hard Unrealistic Gamer Mode" ?

    Well, if it is too hard for you, you should go back to Easy Mode (just uncheck Profi Mode). But three stages/modes would be better:

    1. Easy Mode
    2. Advanced Mode (the same like the "so called" realistic fligh model of Open Beta version now)
    3. Professional Mode (--> the "old" Flight Model, which was developed under the presence/guidance of Claude Vuichard )
  • The "new flight model" was developed together with many real world R22 pilots and as far as I know Claude was still involved very much with this development. See this as the latest step, closest we have ever been to real world measurements of the R22. The goal is to create a very realistic simulation, not some unrealistically hard mode that has negative training effects. Maybe the reason it now feels easy for you is that you have been practicing your reaction skills?


    Regarding the checkbox for the professional mode: All that does is disable any assistance. The physics simulation or flight model as it's also called stays the same and there is no reload when you turn this assistance on or off. There is no easy or hard flight model, there is just one flight model and we want to keep it that way.

    Currently the assistance only helps with the tail rotor, before there also was a feedback loop on the cyclic, which added positive stability to let the R22 hover on its own basically. That is why you probably don't feel any difference between easy and pro mode, but if you fly with a twist grip joystick you'll notice differences in yaw.

  • And for all you who are just making certain comments about how the R22 flight model has changed in current Open Beta version, for you guys I've decided to refresh your memories ( ---> to me this is a very serious thing indeed, because the flight model has not changed by nuance although significantly).


    On 29th November 2018 (releas date of the R22) DrHotwing1 announced on IPACS - post # 1- and Steam forum - long the time before we received the changed Open Beta flight model of today; and it refers to the previous/original Flight Model, developed under the help of Claude Vuichard.


    (sources: IPACS - Forum ; Steam - Forum )

    Quote

    "...The Robinson R22 also has physics that are so precise you would swear that you were flying the real bird, especially in VR...."


    The Aerofly FS2 R22 was designed with the professional and novice in mind featuring both a beginner mode that provides more stability and balance when you fly allowing you to fly while enjoying the surrounding scenery, " and a professional mode that handles just like the real life counterpart."

    Whichever mode you choose you can be sure that you will have the experience of a lifetime.

    Comment: Then, why it has changed? The Professional Mode was advertised as " a professional mode that handles just like the real life counterpart " - maybe because reality has changed since ?

  • Well, if it is too hard for you, you should go back to Easy Mode (just uncheck Profi Mode).

    I'm not a real helicopter pilot - so I have no idea what is realistic. My only wish is that the helicopter behave "As Real As It Gets". Whether it's easy to fly or difficult to fly - is subordinate.


    The goal is to create a very realistic simulation, not some unrealistically hard mode that has negative training effects.

    Exactly. Many thanks, IPACS. :thumbup:

  • With the assistance turned on it obviously doesn't handle like the real thing anymore. And he (my boss) is talking about a mode not a flight model here.

    Again, in this quote he was explicit speaking about the R22's Professional Flight Mode, the same I'm talking about since more than two weeks - I'm only talking about the R22 without any assistance, it's the only I'm interested in because I never fly this bird in novice mode. Feel free to read your boss's quotiation again:


    Quote

    "....and a professional mode that handles just like the real life counterpart...."

  • I'm not a real helicopter pilot - so I have no idea what is realistic. My only wish is that the helicopter behave "As Real As It Gets". Whether it's easy to fly or difficult to fly - is subordinate.

    If it is subordinate why are you bothering me? I strongly believe it is not subordinate for your ego - it is also not subordinate for simmers like me and others for sure, because I really miss the original Professional Mode, and I'm afraid that it disappears completely as soon as AFS2's release canditate version will be updated as well.


    • The original Professional Mode of the R22 gave me a lot of joy, which I cannot claim about the new one - as a helicopter simmer mainly I am really disappointed about the changes they made, and you are just commenting it as "subordinate". For me your ego is subordinate !!!
    • And that's the reason why I've rolled back to Aerofly RC version again, as I've done before.
    • And relating to DrHotwing1's post from 29th November 2018 " The Aerofly FS2 R22 was designed with the professional and novice in mind featuring both a beginner mode that provides more stability and balance when you fly allowing you to fly while enjoying the surrounding scenery, and a professional mode that handles just like the real life counterpart...." --->
    • The "old" Profi Mode definitely feels and flys more realistic for me than the current professional mode of the latest OB version.
    • And yea, that bothers me; because its me who sitting and simulating in front of my PC, not yours.
  • I don't understand what you want to tell me here?! None of the statements that he made changed with the current version, that all still holds true. The real world pilots said it was incredibly realistic before and it that it is even better now.

  • This is a funny discussion, especially because we see the same trends we usually see in the rotorwing community.


    "If it's not way too hard, it's not realistic". I've been hearing that for years. Oh and the old "it models VRS, so it's a highly realistic helicopter sim".


    Both are myths. I've seen helicopters model VRS quite nicely and the rest of the flight model is bogus. And I've tried very hard helicopters that pilots dismissed it as being unrealistic because they were just way too hard.


    In the end, there are a few things that we all need to remember:


    - These are games. No I will not start the "game vs sim" discussion but we are talking about something that runs in our home computers. They are prone to having some limitations from the start. Mainly because...


    - ... our computers don't simulate highly complex, turbulent physics in real life. Not even full-blown class-D sims do it yet. Let alone our puny home computers;


    - We all use different systems (computer + controls + settings) and all of that influences how we handle helicopters and how they behave in the sim;


    - We lack the physical feedback pilots feel when flying aircraft;


    IPACS and other companies do the best they can with the resources they have available. If I use a Pro Flight Trainer Puma and another guy uses a Thrustmaster T.16000 our experiences will be VASTLY different.


    Who am I to say my perception of the R22 is better or worse than that other guy's perspective? We cannot compare both unless we were sharing the same computer.


    IPACS is working hard to make the R22 a good helicopter for the sim and I trust them to make a good job. Does being realistic mean it's a bit simpler? Let it be, then. Haven't you heard pilots saying sims are harder than real life helicopters? Well...


    I'm sorry some of you are disappointed at this change but if you are asking for a more realistic environment, you may have to live with the fact that harder does NOT mean more realistic.


    I am glad IPACS is improving helicopters. I've seen a lot of developers out there throw in an half-assed version of helicopters and never improve it. IPACS did a great job AND they are still making it better.

  • So we have numerous real world pilots saying it's realistic, as an ex heli pilot, I know where my vote goes.


    Perhaps the previous PRO version was not quite right and this latest version is spot on. If I were you I would be thankful the previous PRO wasn't quite right as it has obviously helped your desktop skills level.


    The only way anyone can make a direct comparison is if you are proficient in both the real helicopter and sim world helicopter.


    Steve


  • This very much sums up the way I see it too. Funny you mentioned that real life heli pilots sometimes find simulators more difficult than the real thing because of the lack of physical feedback from gravity and the forces on the Cyclic, one guy once told me that he flies a helicopter "with his a**" and being limited to visual cues of where the aircraft is moving makes simulators more difficult to him than real flying, maybe also because he spends a lot more time on real aviation than on simulation. So as you said, harder doesn't always mean better, and in the end it all comes down to how much you enjoy what you get. I'm very happy with what IPACS provided.