Settings/models of aircrafts for 3D flying?

  • Hello!

    I'm new to AeroflyRC7, my basic RC simulator is RealFlight G6.5. But now I need RC simulator on my Macbook and it seems that AeroflyRC7 is the best solution for me - it runs smooth and works fine with RFG6.5 controller. The only issue I faced with is the physics of the aircrafts.

    I noticed that it is really hard to do 3D airplane maneuvers such as Knife Edge Spin, Lomcevak, multiple SnapRolls, Pop-Top comparing to RFG6.5.
    I tried many models like Extra, Edge, Yak, Katana, Su. I increased Dual Rates value and even tried to increase servo travelling settings, moved CG - the airplane can rotate over its nose but still not able to do 3D maneuvers.

    For example, I have an experience with a real Sebart Su29S 50e which can do KES very easy. Running AeroflyRC7's model I can't do KES, the plane is going to inverted Flat Spin.

    Can somebody share opinion/experience?

    I'm running 7.0.7 version and would like to purchase the latest Ultimate if there is a solution or a guideline for settings of the airplanes for 3D flying.

  • Hi,

    we had long discussions about that topic in the past here in this forum - yes the default settings of the aerobatic aircraft in the aerofly RC 7 are not really suitable for 3D flight even though professional pilots said so when they were asked. The issue is not really with the physics of the simulator itself, its about the setups of the individual aircraft that are not correct, because not enough people critisized them in the past or made the right suggestions about what needs to be improved.

    I recommend trying the Katana unlimited and classic modifications that already come with the product. On the right panel of the aircraft selection menu, you will have to select the right configuration of the aircraft in the dropbox before loading it. The Katana unlimited and classic offers the most realistic 3D setup for the rc 7 in my opinion, well I was part of creating it hehe :D

    Back then in the aerofly 5 we (me and Dr.Dumbtumbs) checked that it would do snaps, knife-edges and a lot of other maneuvers well.- The increased rudder authority in stall sadly reduced the knife-edge spin capabilities a bit, but the flat spins are even better now. (Maybe we need to redo the flight characteristics once again? :D)

    Cheers,
    Jan

  • Thanks for the feedback, Jan

    I didn't notice any extra settings for default aircraft models, I will try what you suggest, thanks.
    To be clear I'm trying to repeat these maneuvers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz6Ojf19IkI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ5QLCnOB-I
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16kmTnYPmFE

    I understand that there are too many parameters of the model affect on flight dynamics but it would be great to have few default aircraft models 3D flying ready because not too many RC pilots have basic knowledge in aerodynamics and don't have a lot of time tweaking the simulator models. You know it's like in RC hobby - some guys are more into building aircrafts less flying them and other guys are more into flying aircrafts and less building :)
    Is there any mods/settings available for 3D flying on the internet? I have found this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHJPSNwuvDM but according to the video there are only low speed maneuvers like Harrier, Waterfall, Hoverng, etc which are OK in AFRC7, I confirm that.

    One of my favorite RC plane - Yak (both 54 and 55) are very good for inertial maneuvers such as PopTop and Lomcevak in reality and RFG6.5 but in AFRC7 both Yaks are very 'lazy' I would say.
    On the next week I'm going to have more time to tweak models settings and let them try againg.

    I have and questions - how to scale and convert aircraft type? Let's say convert default Sebart Su29 50e into gasoline Sebart Su29 140e? Or convert default gasoline Yak55 to electro 1.8m Yak55? Would it be realistic or is it easy to create a new model?

    *********

    PS.
    Hey Jan,
    I found this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdmVhf_hI88
    can I install it on AFRC7 to try? or is it what you wrote before - I just have to select it in a dropbox on the right?

  • Thanks for the feedback, Jan

    I didn't notice any extra settings for default aircraft models, I will try what you suggest, thanks.
    To be clear I'm trying to repeat these maneuvers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz6Ojf19IkI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ5QLCnOB-I
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16kmTnYPmFE

    The first one is a Tumble not a Lomcevak ... - The rudder direction is reversed for the two maneuvers... tumble is aileron and rudder held the same direction with full down elevator and Lomcevak is more like a snap roll from a short 45deg up, can be done positve and negative I think: https://youtu.be/ImW8Kydqtc4?t=2m25s (at 2:25)

    In a Lomcevak the wings spin like a disc (like a flat spin with its main "falling" axis tilted to the horizontal... at some point dipping over to a regular flat spin),
    in a Tumble the fuselage spins like a disc (describing a helix) whilst the wings point forward and backward in the direction of flight and if held long enough ends in a normal knife edge spin when the direction of flight starts to point down...
    At least that is how I understand it, because I sat in an MDM fox and we did a "Lomcevak" and other aerobatic pilots showed me a what they called tumble...

    [...] Are there any mods/settings available for 3D flying on the internet? I have found this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHJPSNwuvDM but according to the video there are only low speed maneuvers like Harrier, Waterfall, Hoverng, etc which are OK in AFRC7, I confirm that.

    One of my favorite RC plane - Yak (both 54 and 55) are very good for inertial maneuvers such as PopTop and Lomcevak in reality and RFG6.5 but in AFRC7 both Yaks are very 'lazy' I would say.
    On the next week I'm going to have more time to tweak models settings and let them try againg. [...]

    That one in the video just shows larger control deflections but that is not the problem! The problems lie in a lack of drag from control surfaces when in high alpha (to little bite from the elevator and rudder), a center of gravity to far forward, to much drag and lift in the stall and way to high lift and drag coefficients on the fuselage in addition with way to much power from the engine and a resulting much to strong propeller wash on the tail surfaces. Also the inertia is to little in most cases and the control deflections don't always correspond physically and optically... But, again, if nobody tells them what exacltly is wrong then there probably won't be much change because if nobody complains then there probably really is nothing wrong with the product and I am OK with that point of view. So if you can agree with my observations then tell us here :D
    Plus the setups were intentionally trimmed to be simpler to fly because most users wouldn't be able to handle agressive 3d machines.
    Plus the developers asked experienced rc pilots and they told them all was fine, so not really their fault...

    Try to fly a "wall" and you will find that the airplanes will just fly a quater loop upward. The real aircraft immediatly stall and almost gain no height and just fall through...

    [...] I have and questions - how to scale and convert aircraft type? Let's say convert default Sebart Su29 50e into gasoline Sebart Su29 140e? Or convert default gasoline Yak55 to electro 1.8m Yak55? Would it be realistic or is it easy to create a new model? [...]

    For that you will have to edit the tmd file of that particular aircraft. It should be as simple as copy-pasting the engine of another similar aircraft over and remove the old one. Make sure all inputs and names are the same which they are most likely, then you are good to go, save the file and reload the airplane in rc7.

    Scaling an aircraft? We do have those neat sliders in the aerofly RC 7, just for that purpose. I don't know of any method to save the larger aircraft though... The 3D model is scaled up when the model is loaded I think...

    [...]
    PS.
    Hey Jan,
    I found this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdmVhf_hI88
    can I install it on AFRC7 to try? or is it what you wrote before - I just have to select it in a dropbox on the right?

    Yes that is the modification that should already be built into your aerofly... I think some reduced versions might not have it (I remember my ultimate had it from the beginning but I can upload the rc7 version to my webpage if that is not the case!)

    *****


    P.S. maybe I really should try to redo the flight physics of a few aerobatic aircraft, now that I know how to do it properly. Before I did not really have a clue how to improve the knife-edge-spin and flat-spin properties, now I also know how to make the airplanes less floaty and make them fall through a lot more.

  • Oh, I always thought that lomcevak or crankshaft is that tumbling maneuver (KES in horizontal direction) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6EoU0zLeRA
    Thanks for the explanation.

    Well I tried Katana mods and indeed they have more spinning/rotating tendency, thanks for the suggestion - I did poptops, blenders and lomcevak/crankshaft/tumbler well. Had to play with a rudder for KES though - it behave like GB Yak-55 1.4m which is very good for flat spin but hard to KES, instead of Sebart Su29 140e which is good in KES but hard to flat spin (I mean real RC planes).
    Katana mods can't do double snap-wall or snap-roll (don't know exact name of maneuver - fly at max horizontal speed and boths sticks in the left bottom corner, then hovering) - not too many inertia or too much drag I think. Real RC planes can do even triple snap-walls (45deg for elerons, 45deg for rudder, 60deg for elevator).
    But Katana mods can unrealisticly hover rotating over the nose (both sticks in the top) without loosing altitude. Even my foamy RC-factory 800mm with extra-back-CG can't do that :) Same thing with the 'wall' - throttle idle, slow speed, stick down and Katana flies tail forward. My RC planes do something like Cobra almost without getting higher on the same altitude and hovering then.

    Which settings you played with, Jan? I think stall angle for Cl should be less to prevent those unrealistic rotating and tail-forward flights, side drag should be reduced as well for snap-walls and maybe something to do with prop downstream interference. What do you think?

  • [...] But Katana mods can unrealisticly hover rotating over the nose (both sticks in the top) without loosing altitude. Even my foamy RC-factory 800mm with extra-back-CG can't do that :) Same thing with the 'wall' - throttle idle, slow speed, stick down and Katana flies tail forward. My RC planes do something like Cobra almost without getting higher on the same altitude and hovering then.

    Which settings you played with, Jan? I think stall angle for Cl should be less to prevent those unrealistic rotating and tail-forward flights, side drag should be reduced as well for snap-walls and maybe something to do with prop downstream interference. What do you think?

    According to Dr.Dumbthumbs his real Katana, about the same size, could do stationary flat spins when the prop is pointed upwards, and I have seen videos of large 3d airplanes that did the same, so its possible...

    Double snaps need less elevator, try 1/3 or 1/2 of stick deflection otherwise you will end up in a wall fairly quickly with those deflections. With less elevator you keep the forward momentum going.

    We went and changed the tmd file itself, there are a lot more parameters than there are available in the inbuilt editor of the rc7. If you have a comparison program you can easily see what we changed.
    We changed inertias, masses, control deflections and proper flap fractions, airfoils (both stall point and in stall behaviour), aerofuselage parameters, propeller and its wash on the aerowings, engine power and a few other tricks here and there.

  • I meant not stationary flat spins but stationary waterfalls (hover and then both sticks to the top). Stationary flat spins are normal, I confirm.

    Thanks for the comments, Jan, I will see what I can tweak in plane settings to make plane behavior more or less close to my real Sebart Su29S 3D monster.

  • Yes, if you do that first set the "ClFlap" for all "airfoil"s to 2.1 not 1.5 and in the "aerofuselage" set Cdy, Cdz to 1.4, Cly and Clz to 0.8. Then for all "aerowing" objects choose a good "StationFlapFraction": for the main wing maybe 0.3 (change all the numbers in the array) and for the tail 0.5... if you need to add a few lines to the main aerowings so that they downwash onto themselves with "DownWashPercentage" 1.0- that should get you going in the right direction. Then you can adjust the deflections and make adjustments to the "PropwashPercentage" of the aerowings and change the StallRange and AttachedRange of the airfoils to get the wanted stall behavior.

    I really should write a tool for that... the "what Jan would have done" tool, LOL

    Cheers,
    Jan