Posts by HKATER

    Yes fair point Frank, my flying nowadays is casual VFR. The xbox gives you by default on the heli (whatever the settings were determined by the game designer):


    - Rudder (via the paddles at the back)

    - Cyclic (via one stick, this would be aileron/elevator for fixed wing)

    - Collective via a toggle switch (personally would rather this on the other stick like I do on radio control helos)

    - Change of view (panning) via the other stick (like a hat switch function)


    The first time I used an xbox controller on a PC years ago flying fixed wing I was very impressed. After years of using joysticks and the occassional rudder pedals (when they worked - I hate PC rudder pedals personally) I found it the closest experience to a real aircraft control (fixed wing - I have no real world heli experience). Never was happy with the twist action of the joystick for rudder control and found that a keyboard assignment for rudder worked best for me for crosswind landings. The ability to completely control an aircraft with two hands (rudder etc) on the xbox (just like in radio control models) won me over completely with the xbox. Its also cheaper than any controller I ever had and has never failed. I am a big fan.


    Forgot to mention that the one hang up with the wireless controller and Aerofly is that you cannot change the view location once in the sim, you can only pan around. To change position from say external to internal cockpit view you have to disconnect the controller and set this in the simulator. When connected to the controller the sim will basically remember whatever the last position was, internal or external. If you have a favourite flying position then this is not a big deal and is easily adjustable.

    FrankLFRS , the old Xbox One (model 1708) wireless controller works with ios13 on my ipad 2017 - I also bought the latest xbox controller series X/S "white robot" colour which looks almost identical but it will only work on ios14 (I believe). I will use the latest xbox with my new ipad I will buy later this year. Yes with a wireless controller you can wirelessly connect the ipad to the TV (apple TV functionality in TV settings - you may need to update your TV software as I had to), by screen mirroring, no extra software required, set the ipad aside (ignore it basically) and fly 100% from the controller. The default sensitivity sucks big time (I can't change it) - I jerk around alot but still manage to fly, hover and land. The default assignments are OK.


    I have dabbled with large screen TV's and flight sims for a few years but the first impression of the Eurocopter outside view on a giant screen was WOW! On the ipad it looks like a heli is on your ipad. On the TV it feels like the heli is in your living room. I like an external view when flying, fixed tail view (a perspective you can't get in a real aircraft) but the in cockpit view is almost life size and very impressive. Its like owning your own personal virtual helicopter.


    I discovered Apple TV (on my Samsung TV) by accident. couldn't get a DVD I wanted and bought it on my ipad on Apple TV. But I am shocked at the implications. Been saying for years that DVD, Bluray will be obsolete one day but I didn't realise that it already is. Streaming and downloading is already here - I was a bit asleep on this one. I may not buy a DVD again. I never did this because I hate watching shows on a small screen like an ipad. Didn't realise you can screen-mirror the ipad to a giant TV. Its awesome.


    Aerofly FS mobile runs very smoothly on a big TV, both the sim and the controller. Very impressed.


    Forget the ipad pro. Just discovered how to screen mirror this sim from the ipad to my very large 2 year old Samsung Q9 TV. I knew I was never buying a PC again, but this takes mobile gaming to a new level. The outside view of the Eurocopter is stunning on a large screen.


    After not being able to get a DVD I wanted was forced to buy it on Apple TV and pair this to my TV. All I can say is I have seen the future and the future is now. I have noticed that new games mirror no problem. Old apps/games don't. Aerofly mirrors no problem and no lag at all. Identical to how it runs on my ipad pro 2017. I think I will be flying alot more now.

    I’ve added a silicone nub to the cyclic stick and am holding it between my thumb and forefinger . It’s a bit awkward but much better precision than using just thumb. I’m still not perfectly stable in hover .

    Turbinerd, I was not getting your point but I see it now. Yes if you are able to increase the length of the "stick" you will decrease its sensitivity since the "tip" will have further to travel. If I could somehow lengthen my cyclic stick (will need to investigate this). A shorter stick (as I have now) will travel less at the tip, for the same output (reaction) at its base and therefore should theoretically be more sensitive to small movements? Not 100% sure about this logic but seems it could work. Seems logical that if you have to push a longer stick further to produce the same reaction at its base as you would have with the shorter stick then it should be easier to control - ie move it a shorter distance, less reaction.


    Sounds like the silicon nub not only increases its length but generally makes it bigger and easier to control.


    I think that some radio control RC pilots of helis (really good ones) have more than one control on one stick, for example yaw and collective on the one stick, but I personally find that difficult. I prefer one stick to only have one motion - I am referring to another simulator which has mapping like that I don't like. Aerofly default mapping is good enough to fly the helicopters as is.



    RADIO CONTROL and Aerofly

    PS, those RC guys who fly helicopters upside down are really amazing. I notice they are quite comfortable with the stubby dual sticks like our nimbus and xbox controllers and seem to be super sensitive with highly responsive models. When you see something like that (I did RC helicopters for a few years but decided that I prefer computer simulations) you realise that RC aircraft are not at all the same as the full size models. They operate by the same rules of physics but their tiny inertia makes them behave completely unlike the real aircraft. I personally consider RC to be 1000x harder than the real thing, because of this strange inertia-wind force sensitivity (fixed-wing that is, real world helis might be the reverse). I used to only fly small indoor helis outside early morning when the wind is less strong.


    An RC guy I used to know would tell me we have real pilots in RC and they consider it harder to fly, and that is my experience as well with regard to fixed wing.


    I often fly helis in RC mode in Aerofly. I just go to a tower or fixed view and fly out of cockpit. Highly recommend it. RC skills, flying an aircraft from a fixed view is much harder than in cockpit and fun to do. Its an extra challenge. Flying an aircraft with reverse-controls (aircraft facing you, outside pilot position) is a real skill.


    For years have tried to fly fixed wing in RC mode (end of runway position) but have always dismally failed to do so - my RC skills are lacking. With helis I find it easier to do so. Its the reason I was into RC helis - I crashed less. Just a thought.

    Yes personally I would rather an ability to customise a controller than a dumbed down flight model. I like it to be hard. Its part of the challenge of helis. Problem right now is a tiny micromovement of a stick produces a large reaction but maybe the real R22 has the same stick sensitivity and needs very small micro movements to keep it stable?


    Overloaded, yes good point - in the real thing I expect I would be even less stable if I wasn't dead. I have noticed that over time I am slowly getting better at hovering the R22 on the ipad and can almost fly it now. At first I could barely stay in a hover. Now I can sort of hover but am jumping around alot trying to do so. Staying in one spot is much harder than the other heli.


    Keep it hard. Would also rather IPACS spends time on other things like blade slap on the R22 for example than dumbing it down. Great - good to hear that the handling is so realistic now.

    Comparing the R22 to the Eurocopter the latter is far more stable and easier to fly, which maybe the case in real life, wouldn't personally know but I suspect that is the case?


    However the CYNIC-in-me is guessing that the R22 ipad model is actually a hyper-realistic model and the Eurocopter is a simpler dumbed-down simulation - hence why it is easier to fly here? At least that's the impression I get, without any real world experience. I like the fact that the R22 is HARD, HARD is good, but maybe it is a tad too hard right now??


    It would explain why I can't properly control the R22 with my xbox default mapped controller. If I could dial down the stick sensitivity and customise the controller I think I would be better able to handle it. Right now Incan only comfortably fly the Eurocopter on the ipad with xbox controller. The tilt/alternate on screen controls make me fly even worse!


    But the Eurocopter as it is is great. No complaints.

    AND then again maybe I am wrong and the Eurocopter on the ipad is a hyper-realistic model as well just like the R22. Judging by the scenery and airports it seems every thing these guys do is quality work.

    Turbinerd, RE: helicopters, yes I am finding the same (I agree with all your points except on the xbox I find the sticks too sensitive, not the rudder, but if I was able to I would probably reduce that sensitivity as well) but thks for the feedback on the nimbus. I am finding the xbox good enough with default mapping but the lack of customisation makes it way too sensitive and a bit hard to control in the hover. The Eurocopter I can fly reasonably. The R22 will have to wait till AFS allows mobile controller customisation and I can dial down the sensitivity on the cyclic - I'm all over the sky trying to fly the R22 on the ipad.


    RE Collective : a stick would be better but that is xbox mapping not Aerofly. Even a self-centering stick that you have to hold down at the start of the sim. To simply hold down the collective stick as the sim is loading so I don't get airborne when the sim loads. Not perfect but you get used to it and unless xbox have a controller that allows you to remove the centering spring - unavoidable.


    I am pretty happy with the Eurocopter, the mobile controller and AFS mobile. Its fun to fly. The rudders as paddles are great and makes heli control much easier. I have always hated foot rudders on computers - have given me too much trouble over the years. Two hands controlling all control surfaces is great and gives complete control.


    If one day I can get a Left Hand Stick collective on AFS it will be even better.


    PS. I fully expect that the next big development will be the NEXT mobile version, not this one, whenever that is. Not a problem with that at all - looking forward to it. Been following these guys for years and I like their 'Mojo'. I also like the "less is more" attitude (less of the planet but a high quality version of what is included). I think that Aerofly FS mobile 2021 is a masterpiece the way it is right now. Its awesome. Thanks guys.

    Pleased to report that I got the older Xbox One wireless controller (model 1708) today and it works well with AFS2021 with the default settings. Almost exactly as I set it up except the collective is a button press down and up, not the left stick which I prefer for better sensitivity and control. Rudder is left and right paddles by default which you really need for a heli. It works in other games on the ipad as well with ipadOS13.7, even though the game doesn't recognise it as a controller, same as Aerofly, it just works.


    Might try to change the settings on my old PC and see if that works. The analogue sensitivity settings in Aerofly control menu doesn't seem to change anything. Highly recommend for heli flying - as good as my older xbox controller on the PC. Seems that ios13 was the fix for wireless controllers and ios14.5 to be released will be the fix for the new xbox series X wireless controller which I will keep for the new ipad later this year.


    Happy days 🙂..... thks team Aerofly


    Edit: well the default settings are not perfect - don't expect a smooth controller experience, its a bit quirky but it does work. Its way too sensitive and can't seem to lower this, but its still easier and preferable to control than with the ipad tilt or analogue onscreen controls. On my old PC (old heli sims like fsx) I have lowered the stick sensitivity which makes helos easier to fly. An example of how quirky it is is you can't change the fixed view position when in game. Whatever the last position was, external or internal will be what it is in game. To change view you have to disconnect the controller and change view and then reconnect the controller and start over. With this controller all you can do is control your view with the left stick (acts like a hat switch) but you can't actually change views like inside or outside if that makes sense. So if you are desperate to fly a heli with a wireless controller it works (but its not perfect), but this control thing needs work- hopefully we will get future support in game from Aerofly to customise controllers. To be able to down adjust the sensitivity would be helpful. But for now its good enough for me.


    Not sure right now if the problem is too high sensitivity on the right stick (cyclic), can't lower it, OR it is the self-centering spring forces, ie too stiff. I notice that the elite 2 allows you to adjust spring forces. I suspect the problem is the sensitivity, not springs, as I have xbox controllers on heli sims on the PC and have no problem with the spring forces at all. Xbox twin stick controllers are far less stiff than joysticks. Joysticks are notoriously stiff by default. Anyways hope this helps anybody considering wireless control on the ipad for Aerofly mobile.

    Ah OK I wasn't aware that there are dedicated MFi controllers for the iphone/ipad. Thought that the xbox controllers were, which they strictly aren't. Did a search and found them thanks, the MFi wireless controllers.


    I suppose the reason xbox is so keen to sort out their latest X series controller for ios is because of the spat they are having with apple over the upcoming Xbox Pass streaming via web browser onto iphone and ipad.


    https://www.makeuseof.com/xbox-game-pass-ultimate-ios-2021/


    Am satisfied that the about to be released ios14.5 update will allow X series controller on the ipad, so I am hoping to use it for Aerofly.

    RE: XBOX Series X wireless controller, model 1914


    No prob - I had intended to buy elite 2, as I know it works (as you have it) but its not available till end of April in Australia.


    Its uber-annoying :( but not your fault. Its actually pretty clear to me now that on the Apple support site they say that only the

    - elite 2, and

    - model 1708, Xbox One

    are presently working in ipados. Only 2 models work (maybe not perfectly, but they work).


    In hindsite I can see it. Of course you only understand all this techno babble after you buy, not before. Before you buy, you read it and think optimistically - oh model 1708 or newer. NO. Only 1708 or elite 2. Hope this post might help someone else here.


    I could return it, as the box says "some FUNCTIONALITY not supported in ios and android," which is not correct - it does not work at all, only pairs to the ipad. Not sure how they define the word FUNCTIONALITY?... but its not my definition to be sure. I thought they meant no mapping or other problems, and some functionality would be there. No its 0% functional even in MFi apps on the ipad. I was hoping to use the default settings, but even that is no go with the latest model.


    Good news is the dual charger and batteries would appear to work in both Xbox One 1708 (2016) and model 1914 (the latest Series X I have now) so I may hang onto both for when I get the next ios14.5 update later - despite my problem it looks to be a very nice controller and cheaper than the elite. Aerofly supporting MFi would be nice but would seem to not prevent users from using wireless controllers, which is great. But thanks for letting us know about the lack of visibility of the elite 2 controller in some MFi ipad games. Will bear that in mind. Yes when the controller doesn't work, it looks fine in the ipad settings (paired, all looks rosy and good) but in-game (in the game app itself) its like it doesn't exist. In the in-game settings screen it does not appear at all and you are left with standard ipad tilt etc.. control settings.


    Just bought the older 2016 model 1708, found it on Amazon, so hopefully will have it in a weeks time to try on the ipad.

    Thanks Madpat, unfortunately for me (in Australia), elite 2 is not available for a few weeks, so I bought the xbox wireless 'robot white' controller (AA battery), latest model 1914 (released Sept 2020, its their latest controller) and rechargeable battery/dual charger kit yesterday. Took it out of the box this morning and it is a beautiful controller. Problem is it doesn't work. Pairs to the ipad pro no problem, but when you go into an MFi compliant game it's like its not there. Annoying bit is the older model (sold out) 1708 works fine with ios13/14.


    I also have an app to check a wireless controller on the ipad, and the controller is invisible as far as it is concerned.


    Seems I am not alone in my frustration!

    Reference:

    https://answers.microsoft.com/…45-45e7-b0ad-4ef964feca01


    Apparently they think ios14.5 will sort the problem (not yet released, its in beta I think?


    I was going to take it back to the store, but will wait for Apple/xbox to sort out the problem.


    Its annoying that their latest controller doesn't work with ios, older one does, and the elite 2 is not yet available in Oz.

    Look thankyou so much, excellent. Bad news on the paddles but at least with 2 sticks I can fly rudder assist.


    Yes the left stick as collective (power) is always tricky, that set up is RC mode 2 if I recall (radio control). Because of the self centering spring on both sticks the collective is always 50% raised up (half power) by default. I make sure to keep the left stick down before the sim loads, so you don't leap into the air, do the same in FSX. It takes a bit of getting used to but once in flight its quite handy having 50% power on without the need to adjust the collective some times, at least you know what it wants to sit on.


    I have never bothered removing or adjusting the self centering springs on an xbox controller as they are not stiff, but I understand it can be done?. I have modified joysticks before (the single standard flight sim joystick), as they are always way too stiff for cyclic control on a heli. By using a cable tie on the spring at the base I have managed to greatly reduce the centering force and acheived a very smooth cyclic control. But since starting to use XBOX controllers a few years ago I would never use a joystick again. Cheaper and better and longer lasting. Twin stick controllers are the best control imo, much closer to the real thing. It works for RC and works well for flight sims. I use the same for fixed-wing flying. The paddles at the back mean you can do everything with 2 hands, no rudder pedals required.


    Thanks very much. I will get a bluetooth XBOX controller (most likely the elite 2) and upgrade to ios14. Happy days.... cheers. Looking forward to heli flying on the ipad. 🤓


    EDIT. Yes I was thinking I would try ios13 first before I update. I am pretty sure that ios13 allows the use of wireless controllers. But after watching videos it seems that ios14 has introduced controller configuration, adjustment of settings (MFi was part of the reason for the ios14 upgrade for Apple mobile devices).


    EDIT. By the way one way to increase the difficulty of a heli sim is to go into the controller setup menu (the section to centre the sticks or joystick, not sure if thats possible on the ipad) and hold the stick slightly off-centre when it asks you to centre it during the setup. The trick is to make it SLIGHTLY off centre. It means that your bird will never sit in one spot stable - will always want to veer off - and will need constant fine adjustment on the cyclic. Have done that trick on fsx before and it increases the level of difficulty substantially. Throw in some wind and it is a difficult exercise to control. I discovered this trick by accident one day when I had a joystick that wasn't centered correctly. After I centered it I noticed the difference. I preferred the off center setting, so set it up off center again. I have had people tell me that the heli is hard enough without making it harder. I disagree - the harder the better imo. I like the challenge and find fixed wing flying a bit boring now.


    Many years ago a Professor of Aeronautical Engineering told me that the difference between a helicopter and a plane is that the helicopter is "inherently unstable". Its basically trying to kill you all of the time. Fixed wing craft on the other hand are inherently stable - they are designed that way (dutch roll for example). I remember thinking at the time - man I don't want anything to do with helicopters - sounds too dangerous. Now I love them - but only on the pc or tablet. Safer that way...

    Oh thks... been studying ios and wireless controllers on internet forums and youtube a few days now and its pretty confusing. Seems that ios14 permits controller configuration on the ipad in the settings bluetooth menu (no pc configuration required), at least thats what it seems, which would suggest it should work in AFS2021 with these customised settings. I am pretty certain that the wireless controllers work on AFS2021 with default settings.


    My situation is an ipad pro 2017, ios13 (I may choose to update to ios14 if I think this will allow me to use a wireless controller for AFS2021). I have my reasons for not wanting to update to ios14 as I have some old app games I want to keep on it that may not be compatible with the new ios14 (have had that problem in the past with ipads). I am about to buy the next model ipad pro this year, so I may choose to wait till then.


    The million dollar question is "can you customise a wireless bluetooth controller in ios14 on the ipad in settings and use this in AFS2021"? Default settings are no good for me. I may have to wait until this all becomes clearer. Microsoft and Apple say they are working on this problem. The lack of MFi support in the AFS2021 app is of a concern - part of me thinks this doesn't matter if the ios14 allows you to configure the controller. Part of me thinks it may be a problem. I am not keen on buying a controller like the elite 2 (not cheap) and find out the hard way.


    As you have an elite 2 is it possible to test if this is OK in ios14 on a mobile device and this great sim AFS2021?


    I assume by extra paddles you mean the elite has 4x paddles and only 2x paddles work in ios? 2x paddles is all I need for rudder control.


    I want to set up like my old pc xbox controller (wired) with left stick collective, right stick cyclic and paddles as rudder. I am not sure I can use my old pc for a new controller configuration as my pc is 100% offline now. And I definitely want to go bluetooth, as connecting a wired controller to an ipad is too complicated for me. I basically can't fly the helos in this sim without a proper controller - its just too hard imo. Even using assisted rudder is too hard. The tilt control is passable, but the collective slider is too hard to use effectively. Sorry a bit long winded, but that is the story.

    Works fine with Xbox Wireless Elite 2 controller on iOS. Sadly, no button configuration available within Aerofly, extra paddles on Elite 2 not supported by iOS yet. But, you can reconfigure the controller in Windows, these settings seem to be saved directly in the controller which then also affect behaviour in iOS.

    Madpat, sorry didn't read your post properly. Are you saying that we can use the Xbox elite 2 wireless on the ipad and customise the controller in ios, and then use in the sim (even though you cannot customise within aerofly)? Seems you are comfirming this. Can the two sticks be customised for helis? Left, collective, Right stick cyclic and paddles for rudder?


    Seems ios14 is required, I am on ios13 so would need to update. Do you think the same goes for other wireless controllers, PS4 etc.. Your help is much appreciated. I want to buy one but first make sure it will work.


    I just need to change the default settings of the controller. That I can't customise within AFS2021 is not a big issue for me, as long as the customisations work. Not clear what you mean by extra paddles? Do the paddles work for rudder? No rudder on a heli won't work very well at all. Thankyou.

    Yep that's the killer - no customisation of a wireless controller is currently possible for AFS2021 on the ipad pro??.... 😪🤧😪😪🤧


    Ios14 seems to allow wireless controller customisation in the setting menu? Can anyone confirm that XBOX ELITE WIRELESS or PS4 dualshock wireless can be customised with Aerofly FS2021 on the ipad please? Default settings are no good for helicopters. Don't want to buy one to find out it doesn't work. The elite looks pretty pricey right now. Keen for a mobile wireless controller to use with AFS2021 on the ipad.

    Cool, very good thanks. Your are the DUDE... when it comes to the A320 on the ipad.


    The A320 was from the start years ahead of its time. When it flew into a forest in June 1988 (pilot error?) Boeing warned about the dangers of military style advanced avionics. They were right of course. The 737max drama reminds me a lot of 1988 though it definitely wasn't pilot error this time.

    My wish list is

    1) another Helo - any model will be OK for me.

    2) adjustable weights, fuel and load so I can play around with de-rated takeoffs and noise abatement procedures on the A320. I miss not being able to modify the aircraft files like I used to on the PC version: cockpit eye positions, weights, inertias etc..

    3) better weather and VC shadows (I think the lack of shadows in cockpit is a bummer for realism and a backward step, can't understand why it was ever removed?...)


    I notice someone here mentioning ATC chatter. I use liveATC as background chatter all the time. You need a second device (phone, ipod, pc) to do this but its very immersive. Highly recommend.


    I also notice requests for crashes (not that I disagree as a crash feature would encourage responsible flying). But I have to say I have 'bounced' off buildings in the heli (unintentionally of course!) and it looks pretty painful in the external view, though not fatal. One of the most awesome parts of this sim is you can land on any building rooftop anywhere. That is fantastic. You can create your own hospital helipad scenarios anywhere you wish with a bit of 'imagination' and real world planning (ie find the rough location of a real hospital in san francisco for example and find a building in the sim in that approximate location).


    The replay feature in this sim is truly inspired. The FSX replay of old was a buggy piece of crap that caused me a of pain in the past (though I still have fsx, it is a fair heli sim). Thank God for aerofly.


    EDIT --- I HAVE ONLY ONE REQUEST, PLEASE, PLEASE AEROFLY..... Compatibility with the upcoming XBOX WIRELESS CONROLLER ( IOS), or PS4 DUALSHOCK4 controller. I simply can't control the helicopters without it. 2 sticks, paddles for rudder, RC mode 2. I have tried to fly them with ipad tilt/sliders or analogue, or rudder assist but it just doesn't work for me. Not enough fine control especially on the collective. This is the best helicopter sim ever. Just needs a proper controller.


    This is what we need it seems, compatibility as a MFi game on IOS as per list below, AND the ability to customise the controller inputs, left and right stick for helos like RC controllers, ie collective and cyclic. Heres hoping...


    https://controller.wtf/mfi-games

    Yes I am upgrading later this year from a 2017 ipad pro. I have to say that this sim runs very well on a 2017 ipad pro, no problem at all. Its the best sim I have ever had. I do everything on the ipad now, work, play... I left PC gaming 5 years ago and have saved a bucket of money. When I look at Aerofly FS 2021 I can believe that the tablet is going to make laptops obsolete one day. I remember when the first laptops came out they sacrificed computing power for portability. Now most people game on high performance laptops. I do miss the xbox PDP controller for helos (it gives great control), but expect that I will be able to use a wireless xbox controller with the ipad soon.


    Frank are you the guy doing these incredible tutorials in French for the A320?

    http://a320afs2ios.wpweb.fr/category/tutoriel/


    If you are this guy, its an awesome website resource thanks.


    Luckily I am a French speaker and a fan of the A320. When I saw the touch n go circuit graphic outline on this website I was amazed and pleasantly surprised - very hard to get information like that (circuit training in jets). Unless you are a pilot its almost impossible to find these details. Its a struggle to find even GA aviation circuit training as it seems many flight schools have their own variations, checklists etc. My instructor for instance used the checklist BUMFISH. I have never seen BUMFISH on the internet. Been looking for circuit training explanations (heights, speeds, the numbers..) for 777 and 747 for years even though I have some excellent and detailed books on these jets. Circuit training, the numbers, is very specific information hard to find.


    PS BUMFISH is Brakes (parking brake OFF), Undercarriage, Mixture, Fuel, Instruments, Speed and Height, on a Piper Warrior in the circuit on downwind preparing to land. Its a checklist title you don't forget. I remember asking him about the parking brakes bit as we were not on the ground, how I was surprised. His reply was if you get that first one wrong you will have a very bad day!

    A side point about contrails and Oz, coming from someone who has been watching contrails for 20+ years as a plane enthusiast is that most people in Oz live on the coast, fewer live inland. Another reason that we tend to see very few contrails is because most aircraft in our airspace if you live on the coast, are at low altitude, either climbing or descending from altitude. Australian cities like Sydney and Brisbane are so far from anywhere else in the world that few aircraft pass over. Until about 10 years ago I almost never saw a contrail living in Sydney. Recently more overflights from Asia to NZ for instance, passing over Sydney have begun to happen and Oz is beginning to look more like other places in the aviation world. The tyranny of distance has shaped us a long time. I once saw possibly a contrail from a low flying jet but was not sure as at the time I thought it was an emergency fuel dump as the plane seemed to be on approach to land at Sydney.