missing torque

1st Official Post

    After finding out that the F-4U has almost no torque I tried the Pitts (which is a real torque monster IRL) and found out that even at 20kts e.g. in a vertical climb there's almost no torque moment.
    During take off, if you slamm the throttle fully open and apply just a single momentary tiny rudder input, the Pitts will take off on here own, very smooth and in a straight line without the need to touch any controls. You can't do that in the real Pitts ;)
    BTW, the aileron spin problem in the Pitts is the same as in the Extra.
    Although I like the FM of Aerofly it still looks very similar to the Aerofly RC true scale add-ons.

    I don't even keep track about the issues I find, it's just when I fire up FS2 and stumble (again?) over an issue that I sometimes post it.

    Of course the F-4 wants to roll with full throttle but there's only very little rudder needed to counteract that roll moment.
    IRL if you apply full throttle at very low speed the F-4 can roll on it's back despite full opposite rudder and aileron.

    Speaking about roll....roll rate seems to be very optimistic as at around 220kias the roll rate is greater than 180deg/sec.
    Rudder only rolls also result in a very high roll rate..approx 90deg/sec.

    @bbrz,
    We appreciate your comments about IRL performance - are you saying that you have actually flown these aircraft yourself or that you have read about their performance traits (flaps down - pitch up/down OR throttle movement torque OR...). If you are sure of your information then it would be nice to have a simple chart of expected/estimated angular rates starting from trim and then applying the control. What follows is simply an example chart.

    Control Deflection______________Amount_________________Degrees per second from neutral trim with respect to last position
    flap down_____________________5 deg__________________1.0 pitch down (relative to trim @0 deg flaps)
    flap down_____________________15 deg_________________2.0 pitch down (relative to trim @5 deg flaps)
    flap down_____________________30 deg_________________1.5 pitch down (relative to trim @15 deg flaps)

    aileron/stick________________________10%___________________10 degrees per second along roll axis
    aileron/stick________________________max___________________90

    elev/stick__________________________10%___________________2 degrees per second along pitch axis
    elev/stick__________________________max___________________10

    throttle(from idle)__________________________10%___________________2 degrees per second along roll axis
    in clockwise direction looking toward the nose
    throttle(from idle)__________________________max___________________10

    Now that is a detailed chart. I doubt that even RW manufactures would record this kind of detail during actual test flights ;)
    You would be surprised how little data are being recorded. I've once talked to a test pilot from a company which builds high performance single and twin engine planes and asked him about the roll-rates of 2 types and he said that they don't record this data.
    Either it 'feels' ok or it doesn't.
    For this form to complete you would need to do actual flight tests in the actual plane in totally calm weather.
    It's not about fine details IMO but just general behaviour, e.g. general pitch up/down moment.

    @bbrz,
    Thanks for your excellent commentaries on this forum (on this topic and others). Yes, I realize that there isn't much published data but pilots are pretty good at remembering some of the rates - at least maybe if it is say 50% or more higher/lower than such and such of another aircraft. I realize that we will have to accept reasonable guesses, but if you and others (including the devs) want to make some estimates, it would simply help to put it in the above format so the devs can test it.
    I was privileged to be a member of the Engineering Simulator development team for Boeing airliners in Seattle from 1980 to 2009 - we had access to all the flight test data that is needed. The Boeing 777 aerodata package alone had 100,000 data points in it - e.g. pitching moment as a function of mach, flaps, elevator, spoilers,stabilizer, etc from sea level to 40,000 feet. Unfortunately, none of that quality data is published - so we all get to estimate for our home simulators. Simulator manufacturers like CAE have to pay $1 million USD for that data package.

    Thanks again

    Dave