How popular is "NAVIGATION"

  • If you are talking about selecting a destination airport then a runway and direction for landing, I do use it. I'm not a pilot and I'm happy to explore more complex navigation aids but for a simple 'I want to fly to that airport', it works well enough.
    I need to get back into the last of the tutorials before I start exploring undocumented features.

  • Hi Donka,
    Have fun with the lessons. They are a good summary of what takes years to learn in reality.
    There is an extra degree of satisfaction in flight planning and navigating on your own steam. In the absence of working VORs and DMEs outside a narrow arc at Salinas, the airport direction and distance display on the top panel can provide some guidance if a plot has been prepared on a chart or by using the really good SkyVector.com site. If going into the San Francisco runway 28s the track can be run by keeping to the north of a helpful string of airports en route.
    For this example try passing 3 miles north of San Jose on a track of 284 degrees, on autopilot with no wind the plane will track to San Francisco lined up properly. For hand flying adjust steering to pass Moffett at 3.7 miles, passing Palo Alto descend past 4000 feet, with San Carlos about 50 degrees forward of the wing pass 3000 feet, steer for passing San Carlos at 3.1 miles and with San Carlos at about 40 degrees behind the wing pass 1800 feet. Another 4 miles and the sleepy Aerofly 2 ILS will come to life and you are in.
    Clicking an airport on a SkyVector chart will show airport information with instrument flying approach plates which include named intersections which can be typed directly into the SkyVector flight plan to display exactly where they are in relation to the Aerofly 2 airports.
    The localiser (left/right) of the ILS should be alive 25 miles out but until IPACS fix things we have to place ourselves less than 0.125 miles (750 feet) left or right of the runway extended centreline to have the ILS needle showing an indication at the ridiculous 3 mile wake up point. The top panel should be showing the distance and rough direction to San Francisco before that point.
    For height a good check is about 300 feet for every mile from the near end of the runway. The top display will show the distance to the airport centre which is a mile extra for a really long runway.
    A typical (3 degree) descent rate is 5 times the ground speed, eg 500 feet per minute at 100 knots, it varies depending on the glide-slope angle which is shown on the approach plate, on ILS 28R in this example it is shown as GS 3.00. Maintaining this will keep the glide-slope needle of the ILS under control.
    Compared to "NAVIGATION" this is much more like real flying with a line drawn on a chart and a clock checking the time a landmark is passed. It is quite like flying using bearing and distance from VORs which hopefully IPACS will enable sometime soon.

  • I was with you all the way to Hi Donka! Seriously, some interesting reading there which I will come back to as I get more experience.

  • There is an extra degree of satisfaction in flight planning and navigating on your own steam. In the absence of working VORs and DMEs outside a narrow arc at Salinas, the airport direction and distance display on the top panel can provide some guidance if a plot has been prepared on a chart or by using the really good SkyVector.com site.

    Overloaded,

    I couldn't agree more. I would much rather plan out the course myself and SkyVector is a great tool for doing what I used to do with aeronautical charts and my trusty slide rule (later an HP programmable calculator). The one thing missing from SkyVector is wind correction calculations of the sort we did with the E6B. This online resource can emulate the E6B calculations:

    http://www.csgnetwork.com/e6bcalc.html

    I find it useful for getting the wind correction angle, but it has lots of other features as well.

    Best,

    Adak47

  • Headwind and drift can be done in your head using memorised sine tables. For instance a wind 30 degrees off the nose has a 50% cross wind component and a 87% headwind component. The headwind can be calculated and added or subtracted to the true airspeed to give the corrected groundspeed and the crosswind correction calculated from its fraction of the airspeed back into a drift correction angle. For instance 5% is 3 degrees of drift (from sine 30 is 0.5 or 50%).

    Edited 2 times, last by Overloaded: Demuddling, mixed up ETA and GSpeed (February 6, 2015 at 3:23 PM).

  • Headwind and drift can be done in your head using memorised sine tables. For instance a wind 30 degrees off the nose has a 50% cross wind component and a 87% headwind component. The headwind can be calculated as a proportion of the true airspeed to give the corrected groundspeed and the crosswind correction calculated from its fraction of the airspeed back into a drift correction angle. For instance 5% is 3 degrees of drift (from sine 30 is 0.5 or 50%).

    Hey, that's a great trick. I remember coming across another shortcut that didn't require the trig function, but I can't put my hands on it. I'll add it later if I can find it. I've written a spreadsheet to do my WCA and groundspeed calcs, but your method is better for making in flight adjustments. Thanks for the tip.

    Regards,

    Adak47

  • Here is a demo, the wind is about 25kt from 030 and this run is from San Jose to Livermore, a track of 359. Sine of 30 is 0.5, so the 31 degree cross wind component is about 12.5 kt.
    The IAS is 100 kt so the x wind is 12.5%. The angle with a sine of .125 is about 7.5 degrees (.1 is 6 degrees). The desired track is 359 so I steered a heading of 007. This calculation takes seconds and the result is not bad. The groundspeed looks a bit high but IAS is lower than True Air speed at altitude.

  • This works in any sim or real life. I used it for low visibility pseudo VOR approaches into Zurich in Aerofly FS. I know of someone using it for asymetric instrument flying using screens for examination. Actually in a twin on one engine there is slight side slip unless the plane is banked slightly towards the live engine so no method is exactly accurate wings level.

  • Hi adak47, I looked at your link's nav computer and tried to convert this demo's IAS through the air into 'IAS groundspeed' into True ground speed. I probably should have done IAS to TAS (hard when flying) then done the ground speed as I presume the displayed wind is True not Indicated.
    The track was 359 degrees.
    The wind was about 030 degrees at 25kt
    The Indicated Air Speed was 100kt.

    The crosswind component is 31 degrees and headwind 90 - 31 = 59 degrees (I could use cosine 31 but it's best not trying to use memorised sines and cosines while trying to fly).
    Sine 60 degrees is .87
    59 degree headwind component of 25kt is about 22kt (I don't multiply by .87, far too hard, I take off about 10% plus a bit).
    IAS 100 kt through the air minus 22kt headwind is 'IAS' 78 kt groundspeed
    Your link's site's nav computer converted that into True Speed of 84 kt over the ground, the sim top panel showed a groundspeed of 83 kt so not too far off.

    I looked at the sites formula for IAS to TAS
    "The formula is (IAS) + (.02 x MSL / 1000)." It doesn't work.
    It should be "The formula is (IAS) + (IAS x .02 x MSL / 1000)".
    78 + (78 x .02 x 4000/1000) is
    78 + (78 x .08) is
    78 + 6.24
    I'll try to remember the formula but of course the sim's top display shows groundspeed, it also gives height above the ground, how many light aircraft have a radio altimeter!

  • I looked at the sites formula for IAS to TAS
    "The formula is (IAS) + (.02 x MSL / 1000)." It doesn't work.
    It should be "The formula is (IAS) + (IAS x .02 x MSL / 1000)".

    Nice catch! I noticed the same error when cross-checking the calculations generated by my spreadsheet against the E6B. The formula they give is simply a misprint -- the E6B actually calculates the correct value when you use it. For example for MSL = 15,000 and IAS = 215 the E6B gives the correct TAS = 279.5, which agrees with your formula (and my spreadsheet). Sorry I forgot to mention the typo in the E6B -- it has been awhile since I used it!

    Regards,

    Adak47

  • Overloaded,

    I found the link I mentioned earlier for doing estimates of WCA without trig, and it is really the same as the method you suggested. The author has you remember a few key entries from the table (see screenshot) and then you use these for getting WCA. The article is packed with other information for quick estimates that are useful for instrument flying:

    http://www.luizmonteiro.com/Article_Estima…e_Printable.htm

    I am so rusty on the instrument stuff, I have not tried these tricks yet. But maybe you will find them of value.

    Cheers,

    Adak47

    P.S. In the table AWA = acute wind angle (i.e., the angle between the wind direction and the course).

  • Surely some mistake, the IAS is only higher than TAS well below sea level unless the temperature is very low. Imagine the pitot head pushing through ice cream versus milk. It would over indicate if flying in a deep hole.

    Reply to previous post, not this one.

    Edited once, last by Overloaded: Temperature (February 8, 2015 at 6:45 AM).

  • Surely some mistake, the IAS is only higher than TAS well below sea level. Imagine the pitot head pushing through ice cream versus milk. It would over indicate if flying in a deep hole.

    Of course you are right. It is just a typo -- the solution is 279.5, not 175.9! I have fixed it in the post. Thanks!

    P.S. Ironic that I am trying to correct a typo in the E6B and then go and make a lame one myself! LOL

  • That site took a long time to get the point across, he requires specified windspeed pre calculated max drifts for each airspeed which are then reduced or increased as wind speed and then direction is varied. I forget how I acquired my method, it might have started out like this but I might, repeat only might, have evolved it with the in your head airspeed plus crosswind component into drift bit. Doing all the sums live is better than trying to remember pre-calculated values and he doesn't do groundspeed! The results are the same, I will keep doing it my way as I'm used to it and I think it is integral and just as intuitive. I looked at his VOR gauge stuff incase he had a way of doing it by twiddling the OBS knob but sadly he didn't.
    The IAS TAS difference doesn't matter at low level and at higher speeds higher up, the wind is less important as drift is less and the navaids sort it out.
    The web site TAS formula was interesting but it seems a little simplistic, the real method uses Rectified airspeed, Correct outside air temperature and the Pressure altitude to produce a result good up to a TAS of 300 kt, above that a speed variable compressibility factor proportional to altitude is also applied. I had to look that up in my CRP 5 handbook but I remembered it was a complex calculation on the big CRP 5 and was only possible below 300 kt on the CRP 6. That web site formula might have been good within certain limits and might have assumed a standard atmosphere.

  • That site took a long time to get the point across, he requires specified windspeed pre calculated max drifts for each airspeed which are then reduced or increased as wind speed and then direction is varied...

    You make great points, and I must defer to your experience and knowledge in this area. I just passed the link along on the possibility that it might contain one or two additional tricks of use to you. Sorry it didn't!

    Adak47