"Hands On" video? (and WMR Info)

1st Official Post

    Has anybody posted anywhere a video showing the VR hands in use? I've tried telling my email friends about the new feature, but "a video is worth a thousand words". I've considered making my own, but since my WMR HMD is not officially supported yet, and kind of iffy, a video made with Oculus or Vive would be better. Something that shows setting the dials (barometer?), controlling the stick, setting flaps, etc. would be great (and promotionally beneficial?).

    :)

    • Official Post

    May I ask, what do you feel are limitations using the WMR HMD?

    I haven't researched WMR much yet, are there motion controllers available for it?

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    • Official Post

    OK, thank you. I'm looking more regarding how they work with the new virtual hands feature.

    We need to know how to support WMR users and it will help to understand from someone using them with Aerofly.

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    Quote from drhotwing1

    May I ask, what do you feel are limitations using the WMR HMD? I haven't researched WMR much yet, are there motion controllers available for it?

    You can check my profile to see if my background provides any validity to what I'm about to share or not. Be advised it takes me months to buy anything because I spend so much time researching the best choice by watching and reading gobs of videos, reviews, media reports, etc (my wife calls me "Monk" of the TV detective series). I will refer to Oculus and Vive products as O/V, and Windows Mixed Reality as WMR. I have owned/used Lenovo Explorer and Samsung Odyssey WMR HMD's. I admit to being a "WMR bigot" and fully expect opposing views from the O/V community. I can provide a lot of history and details related to WMR, but will try and contain myself to answering your question. Having said that, here is some info that may be helpful as you prepare to support 100% of the VR HMD offerings. I recommend this YouTube channel as a starting point for supplemental information: Mixed Reality TV

    From my perspective the "limitations" are on the O/V side. They have less per-eye resolution, require extra hardware for positioning, have a more complex and time consuming software setup, have about the same "sweet spot" and FOV as the Samsung Odyssey, have heavier HMD's, and require a higher level of supporting PC hardware. As for content/software, anything available for SteamVR works on WMR, and there is a 3rd party app that allows running Oculus content on WMR. The cost for Oculus and Odyssey is the same: $400, otherwise the "below $300" WMR HMD's are considerably less expensive than O/V options. Both provide 6 degrees of movement. Both have similar controllers in terms of layout/configuration and movement resolution (I don't know if the WMR controllers have vibration motors as I've only used mine for flying AFS2.

    There are a plethora of web reviews saying that the Samsung Odyssey is superior to anything from O/V. Search on something like "Oculus vs WMR".

    Based on my readings I'm getting about twice the FPS on my punny I5 7600K/GTX 1060 than O/V users are with I7/1070.

    But to answer your question, there are no limitations when using WMR vs O/V to fly in ASF2, except maybe the haptic feel. You have done a great job of providing support for 2/3rds of the VR users, now just some minor tweaks are needed to support all of the VR users. I recommend you get a Samsung Odyssey as it has better FOV, sweet spot (focus area), color & intensity, resolution, and ergonomic controllers compared to the Lenovo/HP/Acer/Dell HMD's (which Microsoft provided the template for). If you go for a non-Samsung HMD, I recommend the Lenovo Explorer as it is the lightest and most comfortable of entry level choices. Negatives of the Samsung include the weight and comfort level, and the maker does not recommend using with glasses. I have modded mine to be more comfortable and usable with glasses as documented here.

    Let me know if I can provide any additional information that might be helpful.

    -=Roy=-

    With IPACS already supporting Vive & SteamVR, WMR headsets are also informally considered supported since they are SteamVR-based. I don't think IPACS has to do anything else to support them.

    The WMR controllers do have vibration motors (you'll feel 1 buzz when you turn them on and 2 buzzes when you turn them off) but Microsoft hasn't enabled them for Steam games yet - sounds like that will be soon.

    Currently, I don't think the Vive motors are working in FS2, once IPACS fixes that and Microsoft does their part, we should then have WMR controller motor feedback.

    I do think it would be useful for IPACS to own a Samsung Odyssey for the resolution vs performance data since it's the highest resolution of the 3 platforms and it's the same resolution (and probably the same display panels) that will be in the next version of the Vive = VivePro.

    • Official Post

    Guys, thank you very much for your honest and detailed responses here.

    I don't know if I can get Torsten or Marc to buy one but I certainly may do so for comparison sake and testing.

    So you are saying that if we fix some of the bugs and make some tweaks here and there the Samsung Odyssey with motion control will work well with Aerofly?

    Also, compared to the resolution and optical quality of the Oculus Rift, would you say that Aerofly looks and performs better in the Odyssey?

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    I was trying to say I think the Odyssey is working as well as the Vive is working with Aerofly. Any bug fixes for the Vive will also help all the WMR headset users.

    Regarding the Odyssey vs Rift comparison - I don't have a Rift. I've seen a pixels-per-degree comparison of the headsets and the numbers were:

    11 = Vive & Rift (pixels per degree)

    14 = Odyssey

    30 = needed for 1080p-like resolution in VR

    60 = human eye

    Performance-wise at a render scale factor of 1.0 for both at 90 FPS, the Vive/Rift need 234M pixels/sec versus 414M pixels/sec for the Odyssey. A standard 1080p monitor at 60 FPS needs just 126M pixels/sec but a 4K monitor at 60 FPS needs almost 500M pixels/sec.

    If you have any 4K monitors for your high-end monitor testing scenarios, adding an Odyssey would cover you for the VR high-end testing.

    Kenventions...

    >> I don't think IPACS has to do anything else to support them.

    My Samsung HMD works as expected in the cockpit, but in the menu screens results are mostly unpredictable. This may be due to some setting I have. Do the menu's work fine with your Odyssey?

    >> The WMR controllers do have vibration motors.

    Duh, Of course they do. On/Off buzzing is a clue isn't it? What was I thinking? :o)

    >> I do think it would be useful for IPACS to own a Samsung Odyssey.

    It would allow them to see what's up with all 3 HMD options, and debug any issues (and understand there are no limitations vs O/V). Currently the Odyssey can be gotten for $400 from Samsung. There might be some kind of developers deal from Microsoft.

    >> probably the same display panels that will be in the next version of the Vive = VivePro.

    Samsung and Oculus appear to be working closely together. My Samsung Gear VR HMD uses Oculus software. That Samsung deviated from the Microsoft HMD template by providing extra features the other WMR HMD's don't have (IPD adjustment, better lenses (providing larger sweet spot and FOV), better display panels, ergonomic controllers, earphone/mic, etc.) may be due to the influence of Oculus. So I wouldn't be surprised if Oculus's "nextgen" HMD has the Odyssey display panels.

    Quote from drhotwing1

    So you are saying that if we fix some of the bugs and make some tweaks here and there the Samsung Odyssey with motion control will work well with Aerofly?

    >> Yes

    Also, compared to the resolution and optical quality of the Oculus Rift, would you say that Aerofly looks and performs better in the Odyssey?

    >> I don't have a Rift for comparison, but info on the web indicates Odyssey beats Rift hands down (both looks and performance). If you want to get by with less expense you could get by with a Lenovo Explorer which would be good enough for test & debug. Be sure to view comparison of the two on the YT channel referenced above.

    Quote from kenventions

    With IPACS already supporting Vive & SteamVR, WMR headsets are also informally considered supported since they are SteamVR-based.

    Ken,

    Just for my edification, can you clarify what you mean by "WMR headsets are ... SteamVR-based"? The WMR Portal (cliff house) runs content that doesn't require SteamVR to be installed. Also, DCS and XPlane 11 don't seem to need SteamVR for their VR support. I'm a little confused on this and it's in my nature to understand how things work. Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

    -=Roy=-

    I'm not a software expert but I'll take a shot at explaining it. Game developers use SDKs so their software will meet the interface standards used with hardware and the hardware guys, in turn, develop drivers so their hardware also works with those same standards.

    Valve developed the "OpenVR" SDK and HTC developed a driver so their Vive would work with OpenVR-based games. WMR headsets also have an OpenVR driver so I was generalizing that Vive = OpenVR = SteamVR and WMR = OpenVR, therefore WMR = Vive/SteamVR .

    A real programmer would probably say I butchered that!

    Obviously, if Microsoft has some bugs in their WMR driver, then a WMR headset could have issues when running Aerofly that a Vive headset wouldn't encounter. I was hoping to make the point that with IPACS limited resources, they just need to make the Rift/Vive users happy because Vive's cousin (WMR) will probably be happy too.

    10-4. I thought SteamVR was kind of an API, and if you wrote for that any HMD would be usable for a SteamVR app (or as we used to call them -- program). This explains why an "app" written to support Vive, worked with WMR from the get go. I was already flying FS2 successfully in VR with my WMR HMD before the hands came along. I guess WMR-only apps available in the WMR Portal are written using some kind of MS API.

    Which brings up the next issue. I intend to continue using HOTAS+Mouse, as flying with the hands isn't as good from my perspective (except for instrument adjustment). I'll just continue to leave my VR controllers off. But since you have a Samsung Odyssey let me ask you this. Does yours work at the menu level? Mine works about 10% of the time if I persist in stabbing here and there and pushing buttons. I can scroll through the aircraft if I "go deep". Not a show-stopper for me, but just wondering if I need to go through the WMR Portal calibration again or something.

    Quote from drhotwing1

    Guys, thank you very much for your honest and detailed responses here. I don't know if I can buy one but I certainly may do so for comparison sake and testing.

    If IPACS does get a WMR HMD for R&D, here's a video on how to use content developed for SteamVR/Vive or Oculus Rift on your WMR headset. There might be something useful to you regarding the differences between the HMD's. BTW: I plugged AFS2 in the comments of this channels review of Top-10 WMR games (not that I consider AFS2 a game).

    I have Oculus CV1 and HTC Vive, but I have been recently converted to Windows MR after purchasing Samsung Odyssey. For flight sim, Odyssey is better than O/V in major areas. It has bigger FOV and bigger sweet spot, better resolution, more comfortable to wear, and most important for me, it's easier to setup for my space. My room is quite crowded. I have to put the joystick on my computer desk that's very close to the wall and barely covered by Oculus sensors and HTC lighthouses. Now Odyssey completely solved the problem, as it needs no sensors at all! I can even hide the virtual boundary if needed. The view is also obviously clearer thanks for the increased resolution. I simply can't go back.

    Quote from frui

    I have Oculus CV1 and HTC Vive, but I have been recently converted to Windows MR after purchasing Samsung Odyssey. For flight sim, Odyssey is better than O/V in major areas. It has bigger FOV and bigger sweet spot, better resolution, more comfortable to wear, and most important for me, it's easier to setup for my space. My room is quite crowded. I have to put the joystick on my computer desk that's very close to the wall and barely covered by Oculus sensors and HTC lighthouses. Now Odyssey completely solved the problem, as it needs no sensors at all! I can even hide the virtual boundary if needed. The view is also obviously clearer thanks for the increased resolution. I simply can't go back.

    Hm... that sounds interesting. I have a Rift but I also have a very small space to play in. I like the bigger FOV and better resolution and also that you don't need sensors: I didn't know that (because I lost interest in VR and never had a look at the Odussey). I may have to check out some reviews.