Haze around Lights

  • Hello Devs, please have a look to the haze, which is generated around the lights.


    I cultivated several sceneries with lights the last days and observed this:


    There is too much of haze. In wider distance it looks extremly foggy, and this though I already set the visibility to 100%.

    Another effect is that lights in the distance appear much brighter then those in front. Please adjust the haze to a lower amount.

    It also would be nice, if this would be adjustable.


    Lights are bringing so much more life into the night scenes, that they are a real win - but only if they look realistic!


    Regards

    Thomas

  • I've mentioned it several times. Last time was just yesterday. But since nobody else had mentioned it, I was beginning to believe I was crazy.... :huh:

    Devons rig

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  • Just as a sidenote: the way lights appear in 2D and they way they appear at current oculus resolutions in 3D is pretty much completely different. Ideally, it might be good to have two separate implementations, one for vr and one for 2D, (at least until VR has better resolution) but i have no idea if Ipacs has the resources to even think about bothering with that.

    Devons rig

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  • Just as a sidenote: the way lights appear in 2D and they way they appear at current oculus resolutions in 3D is pretty much completely different. Ideally, it might be good to have two separate implementations, one for vr and one for 2D, (at least until VR has better resolution) but i have no idea if Ipacs has the resources to even think about bothering with that.

    That is never going to happen. We're always aiming for one good solution that works for both.

    In this case, I might, add it looks like the lights are always rendered in the same size, not taking the distance into account or screen resolution. On VR this means a single light takes up more screen due to the lower resolution. Correct me if I'm wrong, don't own a VR headset yet.

  • That is never going to happen. We're always aiming for one good solution that works for both.

    In this case, I might, add it looks like the lights are always rendered in the same size, not taking the distance into account or screen resolution. On VR this means a single light takes up more screen due to the lower resolution. Correct me if I'm wrong, don't own a VR headset yet.

    I think additionally it's that vr is already fairly indistinct at long distances due to the resolution, and something that's hazy in 2d is pretty much a blob, especially at night in VR. Also, the current individual light "bloom" is so wide that long lines of lights become long blurs of "fuzzy" lights. The light halos should probably be smaller so they don't blend together into a long blur, and brighter to distinguish them from light from building windows.


    This is just my opinion! But probably the night lighting most widely acknowledged as the current hands down best is from x-plane, and it looks good in both 2d and Vr. There are probably some lessons to be learned from their implementation. (or not, if you disagree!) ^^


    But note how the lights in the vids I post below are quite bright and VERY sharp/intense. Realistic? a matter of opinion, but boy are they cool. My opinion is that AF is still too dark over cities at night. In fact so dark that I'm finding it nearly impossible to take any good night pictures.




    Devons rig

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  • I think additionally it's that vr is already fairly indistinct at long distances due to the resolution, and something that's hazy in 2d is pretty much a blob, especially at night in VR. Also, the current individual light "bloom" is so wide that long lines of lights become long blurs of "fuzzy" lights. The light halos should probably be smaller so they don't blend together into a long blur, and brighter to distinguish them from light from building windows.


    This is just my opinion! But probably the night lighting most widely acknowledged as the current hands down best is from x-plane, and it looks good in both 2d and Vr. There are probably some lessons to be learned from their implementation. (or not, if you disagree!) ^^


    But note how the lights in the vids I post below are quite bright and VERY sharp/intense. Realistic? a matter of opinion, but boy are they cool. My opinion is that AF is still too dark over cities at night. In fact so dark that I'm finding it nearly impossible to take any good night pictures.

    I think it's so fascinating due to the insane number of lights. You couldn't possibly count them and that is what blows you away. The sharp lights are realistic I think but actually in real life there isn't just the point lights, there is also the illuminated ground which throws back a lot of the light. And I think that is a bit dark in x-plane compared to the lights. Most street lights point down and not up and so the streets should be bright but the lights should not directly blend you.

  • I think it's so fascinating due to the insane number of lights. You couldn't possibly count them and that is what blows you away. The sharp lights are realistic I think but actually in real life there isn't just the point lights, there is also the illuminated ground which throws back a lot of the light. And I think that is a bit dark in x-plane compared to the lights. Most street lights point down and not up and so the streets should be bright but the lights should not directly blend you.

    An advantage X-plane has (for now at least) is that their point lights actually do illuminate the ground and buildings around them. I'm going to be fascinated with whatever Aerofly comes up with when you finally implement dynamic lights, and if the sim will also be able to support large numbers of them.

    Devons rig

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  • Jan,

    Please have a look to the recent ORBX own version of Chicagos nightview:




    Indeed it _is_ pretty dark.


    You get a good impression of Chicago's REAL night vision, if you search for "chicago at night plane" in google with chrome.

    Overall the lights are much brighter and the haze does not add that much in the distance.



  • Jan,

    Please have a look to the recent ORBX own version of Chicagos nightview:

    I agree, even if in my setup Chicago at night does not look as dark compared to your picture, I think in general the lightning should be brighter and with much less haze effect (the lights look blurry).

    Cheers, Ed

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  • Guys,

    this is really a subjective comparison. We actually changed how the lights look now due to many users complaining that the lights were too bright, now the same exact thing is happening here with users noting that the lights are too dim and blurry.

    There is no way that everyone will be satisfied here.


    I myself have done a lot of real-world night flying and in comparison with what Aerofly currently has it's pretty realistic. The night lighting in X-Plane IMO is too bright, so once again, subjective.

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.


    Regards,


    Jeff

  • Jeff,

    of cause you are right, that this is subjective. But judging against ALL of the Google pictures, the Aerofly lights look too dark.

    Maybe a compromise can be done: as long as these lights do not illuminate the ground like in real life, they should be a bit brighter to compensate for this.


    Another possibility would be a configuration parameter in main.cfg.

  • Jeff,

    of cause you are right, that this is subjective. But judging against ALL of the Google pictures, the Aerofly lights look too dark.

    Maybe a compromise can be done: as long as these lights do not illuminate the ground like in real life, they should be a bit brighter to compensate for this.


    Another possibility would be a configuration parameter in main.cfg.

    You also have to realize that we also focus on VR, and in VR the lights look very realistic.

    With cultivation you can actually change the intensity of each light if you wanted to, but the way that lights are made in Aerofly if you made them brighter you would also increase the glare effect around them and users will then complain that the lights are even more blurry than what we have now.

    I feel that the current lights are a good blend, any more adjustment could lead to negative results.

    IPACS Development Team Member

    I'm just a cook, I don't own the restaurant.
    On behalf of Torsten, Marc, and the rest of the IPACS team, we would all like to thank you for your continued support.


    Regards,


    Jeff

  • Just wondering if a photo is a fair comparison? I've done a fair bit of night photography and of course exposure is critical. Consider the Northern Lights which i've photographed in Norway. Real life is nothing like the photos.

  • Ah, I see, so a compromize between the VR and the regular Aerofly mode must be done.

    What about this: as Aerofly knows, in which mode it is, it can compensate for this by just changing the internal parameter for light intensity?


    Though I can manipulate the intensity for my own cultivation, I can not do so for ORBX scenery.

  • I just want to move this thread up again. I did several dusk/night flights around Denver in the new Colorado scenery. Glad to see the first night cultivation. However I was still not so happy with distant lights (streets and runway/taxiway). Also the approach lights on the parallel runway were verry blurry (I landed on 35L, 35R was blurry or hazy or whatever the right english term is). This is only realisitc if you have bad eyes. I run the flight sim in 4K, maybe this has an impact.


    Regards,

    Thomas

    Best regards,

    Thomas


    i7-6700K @ 4.0 GHz, Geforce GTX 1080, 32MB RAM, 500 GB SSD, 1 TB SSD, 1TB HD, 32" Monitor 4K, Oculus Rift

  • In the meantime I bought a Oculus Rift and must admit, that the lights are looking good there.

    On the other hand this is not true for the monitor view.


    I think there should exist fixed conversion factor which could be applied in the respective mode VR/normal.

    This would give both type of useres a good night experience.

  • I guess right now not many fly in night, whether 2d or in VR. This could change when more night scenery is added. Then this discussion will raise again.


    Is it a question of resolution?


    Regards,

    Thomas

    Best regards,

    Thomas


    i7-6700K @ 4.0 GHz, Geforce GTX 1080, 32MB RAM, 500 GB SSD, 1 TB SSD, 1TB HD, 32" Monitor 4K, Oculus Rift

  • Jeff's point is right, in real life the instrument lights do not allow full night adaptation of the eyes. The ground in ordinary areas is pitch black and 'VFR navigation' is based on keeping a tally of the towns passed and checking their expected size, shape and location. Once using nav-aids the precise mental map gets lost.

    As Phil says a photo based on a 30 second exposure is way brighter than what the eye sees. I'd like to be able to darken the ground, medium-dark grey looks false to me.

  • Thank you for your professional oppinion.

    I too agree, that the ground should stay dark. (Exept in big cities, where that many lights do illuminate the ground).

    My mentioned pictures are made from a flying aircraft. None of them are showing any light stripes, which is hinting to a relative short exposure time.


    Also when googling for "Chicago at night, from the cockpit of a plane" you see, that the lights are brighter then the instruments.

    I would be satisfied, if aerofly is showing it that way (without the unnecessary haze).


    Please compare that picture to my screenshot done with a 747 cockpit with default instrument light settings (medium). The city lights are so faint, that they are barely visible.


    Thomas