R22: hurt ego

  • I'm sure larrylynx is current or former AAC. Probably the best trained and educated pilots I've met.8) I think he will agree with me, though, you don't learn to fly helicopters by reading, otherwise I would have been the worlds best helicopter pilot having read Chickenhawk a dozen times. The only way is to just keep trying. The downside to learning in a sim is you get no feedback from an instructor. Dual flying would be a great way for those that can already fly to help those learning. :)

  • 44 years a helicopter engineer and 1500+ hours flying helicopters and I agree totally, a sim doesn't help you one bit, Instructors push you so far but you learn far more on your own and by your mistakes, when a trip scares you half to death it tends to stick in the memory more

  • 44 years a helicopter engineer and 1500+ hours flying helicopters and I agree totally, a sim doesn't help you one bit, Instructors push you so far but you learn far more on your own and by your mistakes, when a trip scares you half to death it tends to stick in the memory more

    Ain't that the truth. After my lesson on vortex ring, I went out the next day on a solo flight. I had become obsessed with VRS and went around 4 times as I was convinced I would enter it. I will never forget the sweaty horrible feeling of that flight. =O

  • from Collier: How to Fly Hellicopters 2nd edition c1986 !

    Slight lean to the left at low speed makes sense. It is a bit like a few degrees of bank into the live engine with asymetric flight in a multi engine plane with wing mounted engines. The big side force from the rudder deflection needs a ballancing side component of lift to avoid a draggy side-slip.


  • a sim doesn't help you one bit,

    If that were true, why do airline pilots do their first real world flight on a new type with passengers on board? (trained in simulator before)


    From hour experience simulating is a very effective training. I bet you that I could hover a real helicopter now, after many hours of simulator training. I just don't have that kind of money to prove it :D

  • If that were true, why do airline pilots do their first real world flight on a new type with passengers on board? (trained in simulator before)


    From hour experience simulating is a very effective training. I bet you that I could hover a real helicopter now, after many hours of simulator training. I just don't have that kind of money to prove it :D

    You rather miss the point. A level D simulator is as real as the real thing. This is a game. A very good game but a game non the less. ;)

  • Jan, What I was trying to illustrate is an instructor can pass on all his experience, seat of the pants stuff, a simulator is just a computer program, it will not help you unless another instructor does that job.


    Flight sims are great tools but that's all they are, I've built enough of them to know how effective they can be but they don't have that experience to call on, they are in effect a great visual aid and a valuable learning experience but lack that human touch

  • A professional instructor makes all the difference. Jan there must be some helicopter schools around Stuttgart, you could phone up and arrange a trial lesson, it would only cost you 20 to 30 minutes ........ unless you get hooked. Try getting past the joy of slowly drifting past trees to land in an ordinary field.

  • Thanks for all the very interesting posts, everyone!!! Much appreciated! I am learning a lot by reading already... 8) I simply thought a few things were going wrong on my PC but clearly everything is going exactly as they should so... now it's up to me to learn how to cope with all these forces! ;)

  • Interesting discussion re. the value of sim and "just a game" etc. My background is as a Grade 1 flight instructor, bush pilot, survey pilot and airline pilot. 30+ years experience and literally hundreds of Level D simulator check flights both as instructor and in the "hot-seat" left and right, operating deHavillands, Boeings and Airbus. Level D has always been considered by regulatory authorities as being of equal or better value than the "real" thing, so there's really not much to discuss there. Very first landing i did in a "real" 737, 777 and A330 was with a planeload of passengers and this is now entirely common for the industry, as we have suspended completely with "base-training" in a real aircraft, where we used to "drill holes in the sky" with an empty airplane.

    As for the value of "home-sim'ing it is more complicated. From the early days, simming on a home computer held a value, but only in certain aspects of learning to fly. For IFR procedures, NDB-approaches, ILS's and holds it was great, because you could build an understanding of concepts and developing your instrument scan. For basic flight training, be it fixed wing or rotary it only held very limited value, as the inability to look around, building a "bigger" picture and developing situational awareness just wasn't there. Aircraft performance modelling was rudimentary and while I have always dabbled in home-simming, it was very much on 'n off. Enter Virtual Reality and voila - it's a massive game-changer! With VR, I have become completely proficient in flying a helicopter, through trial and error, and I can confidently state that I would be able to perform basic flight maneuvers in a variety of helicopters, including hovering in confined spaces, vertical referencing and auto-rotations etc. in a "real" helicopter. I still have ZERO flight time in rotary wing and I shall be the first to recognise the value of a good instructor, but the thing is - that with unrestricted access to a decent home set-up, it is entirely possible to get proficient in basic handling. I am not at all suggesting that I am "SAFE" to take a chopper up by myself without dual instructions from a qualified rotary wing instructor, but my hand-eye-foot coordination is well and truly sorted and i certainly would save money on rental and should be at standard with minimum time, if I go ahead and get a rotary wing conversion on my license. With the frame-rates available in Aerofly FS2 and the fidelity of the R22, using VR and small cheap motion platforms, there has been a complete paradigm shift, and I'm convinced that the training industry and eventually the regulators will catch onto this. It's most certainly not "just a game" anymore (even though it's a heck of a lot of fun!!!)

    Flying A330 as a day-job and enjoy VR-flying with PIMAX 5k+. NextLevelRacing v.3 Motion platform, Watercooled and overclocked i9-9900k, 32Gb 3600RAM, Samsung 970EVO Pro 2Tb m.2, nVidia RTX-2080Ti FE, Thrustmaster HOTAS, VKB pedals, Cockpitforyou motorised throttle quadrant, Precision Flight Controls Jetliner column

  • There is one thing a simulator can never give you ( no matter how good it is) and that is the fear factor. We all know if you crash a sim you reload and have another go. if your too heavy on the controls in the hover and if gets away from you there ain't no reload lets try again option

  • a sim doesn't help you one bit,


    I was an RC airplane - helicopter instructor for most of my life, when RC simulator came out our task of instructor was cut to... a few flight and the final exam. That all began with "Real Flight" a very long time ago.


    I took my PPL in the 80', simulator where a joke, i mean the one we had in the school. I still fly today, less, but I try once a month to keep my insurance up to date. Now, your statement is completely false. Even if it's simply for VFR reference.


    I was also working on airplane maintenance half of my life... and I have way more flying hours then you :)

    BennyBoy. I5 8600K @ 4,3ghz, 16 ram, GTX 1060 6G @ UW @2560 X 1080. Sim: AF2 & P3D V4

  • Quote

    and that is the fear factor

    That's my reason why I don't allow myself to crash. I have to bring myself and the plane down healthy at all times. I act as if the crash in the simulator is as bad as in reality. On the other hand, the simulator allows us "little" people to fly an Airbus or Boeing with respect but without fear. :thumbup::):)

  • As for the value of "home-sim'ing it is more complicated. From the early days, simming on a home computer held a value, but only in certain aspects of learning to fly. For IFR procedures, NDB-approaches, ILS's and holds it was great, because you could build an understanding of concepts and developing your instrument scan. For basic flight training, be it fixed wing or rotary it only held very limited value, as the inability to look around, building a "bigger" picture and developing situational awareness just wasn't there. Aircraft performance modelling was rudimentary and while I have always dabbled in home-simming, it was very much on 'n off. Enter Virtual Reality and voila - it's a massive game-changer! With VR, I have become completely proficient in flying a helicopter, through trial and error, and I can confidently state that I would be able to perform basic flight maneuvers in a variety of helicopters, including hovering in confined spaces, vertical referencing and auto-rotations etc. in a "real" helicopter.


    Yes VR is the real game changer for flight sim. It's a pity not many people are truely aware of this. It's not just the view, but much more. Flight sim on traditional monitor and flight sim in VR are two completely different things. VR will greatly push flight sim forward, and flight sim, along with car sim and other sims, will be the vital force to push VR forward.

  • 44 years a helicopter engineer and 1500+ hours flying helicopters and I agree totally, a sim doesn't help you one bit, Instructors push you so far but you learn far more on your own and by your mistakes, when a trip scares you half to death it tends to stick in the memory more

    Retired airline pilot. Hundreds of hours in level D sims. Decades of experience with desktop flight simulations. Two things:


    1) There is NO replacing proper flight training from qualified instructors.

    2) There IS immense (potential) value from flight simulation, whether a level D sim, or a desktop sim (and especially with the advent of VR).




  • I think I found the perfect practice for me! Instead of just flying around over some nice scenery (while never really having a clue if I am flying straight or not or if I am going up or down or if I am flying at an angle or whatever, in short: while not actually learning anything useful) I position myself on one end of a runway and then try to get to the other end as good as I can. So in a straight as possible line and without straying of the runway.


    I notice this gives me a perfect clue on what I am actually doing: am I flying straight or not, am I spinning or not, am I going up or down or not, etc. I CONSTANTLY am very aware of what I am doing. I now see and notice how important it is to make the CORRECT movements with the controls a second nature. When I am flying high I don't really know what I am doing but in such a controlled environment, so close to the ground, I immediately notice what effect every movement has!


    High in the air I had to think 'O, the R22 is going that way, I think I have to move my feet that way' but during the last practice session of around 20 minutes I notice my feet start to react by themselves already. My use of the cyclic is a lot more intense and busy but more useful too. I have the idea I am actually learning something!


    As I posted I always drifted way off to the right after take off: not anymore! With a lot of little and precise movements I can take off, fly from end of the runway to the other without leaving the runway on either side and land, which is quite something for me already. Yes, my heli still rocks and spins left and right and also crashes frequently but it is going where I want it to more and more and I already flew a straight line a few times (apart from the take off and landing, that is). And as I said: I actually feel my movements are becoming second nature already: I sometimes react before I think!


    And it's pretty fun to do too! It almost feels like playing an old arcade game LOL


    One other thing that helped... I positioned my joystick on the table instead of on my lap. My table is too high for this but I know already I am going to create a special stand for this because it (obviously) helps to have the joystick on a steady surface: only then you can know exactly what movement does what: keeping it on your lap is fine for flying a C172 or Q400 but clearly not for an R22. To fly a heli your controls really have to be very predictable and they aren't on your lap where they can move in a lot of directions.